Voltage regulator?

[Selahdoor]

Yeah. I get tired, and my inner gorilla just goes crazy, when it comes time to tighten nuts and bolts...

 

[BeastMaster]

Good Lord!

How did you get that nut off?

CW or CCW to remove?

I can't get the rotor to lock to get any torque on the nut. 15/16.

I bet an impact wrench would get that sucker off. I figured I'd take it apart just to see how it went together, maybe I could get it running again. A little maybe, that is...

 

[IDIBRONCO]

I bet an impact wrench would get that sucker off.

It does.

 

[IDIBRONCO]

I stripped out BOTH pulley nuts! Now I have to find replacement pulley nuts.

Anyone know the stats on those? (Thread size and pitch.) And where I can get a couple of them?

When I discovered that this nut had fallen off of mine back in June in Yuma, Colorado, I waited until a parts store was open in the morning. The guy behind the counter gave me one off of a core that he had in the back. You could see if a parts store would give or sell you one.

 

[Selahdoor]

Good Lord!

How did you get that nut off?

CW or CCW to remove?

I can't get the rotor to lock to get any torque on the nut. 15/16.

I bet an impact wrench would get that sucker off. I figured I'd take it apart just to see how it went together, maybe I could get it running again. A little maybe, that is...

Lefty-loosey.

Impact!

Take the regulator off. Through that hole, you should be able to find a way to wedge the rotor in place.

If you are going to take the entire body apart, then I would suggest that you stuff a rag in there as hard as you can. Poke it in with a screwdriver, and just keep stuffing. The same way you'd stuff rope in a cylinder to keep an engine from moving.

If you'd rather not use a rag or rope that way, carefully examine it, and choose the best place to stick a screwdriver in there. That's what I did. Not a bit of damage.

Two other things to do, to keep from damaging anything. The case has to be held solidly somehow. And you have to be firm with the socket and impact. No weak wristed stuff, or you'll strip something, or break something internally. (I stripped mine, when putting them back on. I used the impact for that as well, and wasn't careful enough. Just gorillaed them on. I was too tired. Should have just waited till today to finish.)

When I discovered that this nut had fallen off of mine back in June in Yuma, Colorado, I waited until a parts store was open in the morning. The guy behind the counter gave me one off of a core that he had in the back. You could see if a parts store would give or sell you one.

That's what I was thinking about doing.

In fact, thinking that I'll take the alt with me, to be sure I get the right nut.

~~~

The guts from the old alternator actually fell out in bits. I am amazed that it was still working, and tested good!

But of course the way everything fell out, and broke further, there's no way that I can make a working alt out of the bits. So, I'll have to just chuck the rotor back into the case, and put it back on the old truck that way, just to keep the belts in place and to run the vacuum pump.


By the way, a hint for taking the rotor out.

Take the back of the case off, first. CAREFULLY.

In the good one, the windings and diodes and all, came out, with it. Or at least pretty much just fell out, afterward.

Then set the case on something very solid. In this instance, I was able to make use of the mounting points of the case. Turned with the rotor pointed downward, those mounting points are long, parallel surfaces.

I used two large solid blocks of wood. One higher than the other. Set the mounting points down on those, with the wood far enough apart that the entire rotor assembly will clear them when it falls out. (Put something below, to cushion the rotor when it falls out.)

Now you'll notice there is a 'dent' in the center of the shaft. Sharpen a large bolt or something similar. Has to be thick. Almost as thick as the shaft, is best, so maybe a 1/2' bolt. Sharpen the point to match the dent.

Keeping everything square, and SOLID... Use the pointy bolt as a drift, to drive out the shaft. Use a hand sledge, not a ball peen or carpenter's hammer. You want good solid, no compromise blows. Plinking around any other way is going to result in damage to the shaft or threads. I just knew this from prior experience.

You seriously do not want anything to be loosely held, or able to slip when you are doing this.



Or... Just use a press.


Thing is, those three little screws that hold in the bearing, on the inside... They held just fine. If anything, they might have been frozen in their bores, and now they were as easily removed as if they had just come from the factory.

 

[franklin2]

You don't want the bearings to go in too easy into the aluminum housings. They can start to slowly rotate in the housing and over time the hard outer race of the bearing eats up the aluminum bore. You will find your armature very sloppy, but the bearings are fine, they have wollared out (thats a technical term) the bores they sit in.

 

[BeastMaster]

Wollared out. Interesting technical term.

Got another one for you...often, the now undersized shaft starts rolling inside the wallered out bearing, instead of sliding, setting up a gawd-awful vibration that rattles the rest of the machine apart.

What's the technical term for it doing this? I have heard it was called "journaling", but never heard anyone else call it that; most had a name for it that referred to God.

I had a helluva time just getting that back clamshell off. Tapping with hammer and using the 15/16 wrench to direct the impact to the lip. Around and around. Finally popped off. Stator coil and diode assembly still in there. Haven't been able to remove the rusted/burned off power output screw.

Thanks for the rag idea...i will reassemble with a rag in it and re attempt nut removal.

I think it fried it's innards when it's output terminal broke and left the output current wide open. I suspect the resulting overvoltage did the diodes in. The voltage regulator, seeing a battery needing charging, probably called for full output. I don't know if the regulator saw the overvoltage on the S terminal and shut down on that.

At this point, I'm driven by curiosity.

 

[Selahdoor]

Franklin, that's true, about the bearings in their housings. I think I might pull mine apart again tomorrow, and put threadlock, or super glue into the housing, On the regulator end and then shove the bearing back in.

The larger bearing at the pulley end, is plenty tight enough. I am just a little concerned about how easily the smaller bearing at the regulator end, slides in.


BeastMaster, Yeah, a good portion of this has been driven strictly by curiosity for me. It would have been a lot easier a few weeks ago, to just buy a replacement alternator.

But I have started learning about all the systems in this truck, and now I crave learning about it.

Well, that and by necessity, I am cheap bastidge. I am still denying the rumor that I can be found fertilizing my yard with a buffalo nickle and a pair of vise grips...


~~~


Only thing accomplished today was a trip to town.

But I picked up 5 different nuts. All of which sort of fit. But one of which actually seems like it may be the right one.


Tomorrow, I will do as i said earlier. Remove the back of the alternator again, and put threadlock or crazy glue in that bearing housing.

Then I'll put it all back together, reinstall it... And do another test.

I REALLY hope this works.

If it turns out just the same, I'll put this problem on hold, and do the rest of the work I need to do anyway.

Hoping that at least some of that electrical work might have an effect on this.


If, in the end, this doesn't get 'fixed' by anything I do, I will probably completely cut out all circuits that have anything to do with the alternator, and build all new circuits.

Then buy another alternator if I really have to.



I'm still astounded by the way the alternator could be running, and actually test as good, with broken parts inside. Almost all of the winding connections were broken and barely holding on.

Those had to be broken for a while, as evidenced by all the corrosion at, and in the breaks. (That I TRIED to get pics of.)


I'll also put the other alt back together with the bare rotor in it, to act as a sort of placeholder for the belts in the old truck.

 

[BeastMaster]

If nothing else, you got experience.

Had to howl a bit over that buffalo nickel and vise grips. I 'm a cheap bastadge too, due to layoff, and really got burned out trying to appease the tie people. Always justifying their humongous salaries by screwing everyone else. Yeh, I'd like to have money, but not that way.

May be that alternator found some way of making the regulator look bad, but I thought only humans and cats did stuff like that.

I'd like to get this thing reassembled into something more useful if I can. Still haven't got that nut off. No impact tool. I'm still trying to jolt it loose with a 15/16 inch wrench and a hammer.

I have a lot of electronic tools, but not many mechanic tools.

 

[Selahdoor]

The cheap electric impact from harbor freight is worth every penny!

https://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-heavy-duty-electric-impact-wrench-61173.html

I let go of money for tools a little bit easier than I do for parts. Tools save you money, and can even earn you money. Parts is parts. Maybe I can find a way of using an electric toothbrush and a can of beans to fix that vacuum. But I still need the tools.

 

[The_Josh_Bear]

Another way to secure the pulley is to wrap something flexible, tough, and static around the pulley then clamp a vice or similar around the ends, but not the pulley. I used an old heavy gauge battery cable or maybe broken booster cables. Since they don't stretch and aren't slippery against metal, 3 wraps and it's nice and secure. I didn't even have a vice so I stepped on the loose ends and the impact buzzed it right off.

But with no impact you may need a vice or boards and c-clamps or something similar to really keep it still for that wrench.
Also, you may try a little heat, I think they have a dab of red thread locker from the factory. But I can't remember that far back! I did my swap 6+ years ago.

 

[Selahdoor]

I held the pulley perfectly still.

Made zero difference on either one of them.

There is no way that the pulley is keyed to the shaft.

As soon as the nut was the tiniest bit loose, the shaft just spun inside the pulley.

Then I had to figure out a way to hold the rotor still.

 

[Selahdoor]

Ok, it's official.

It's not the regulator, or the alternator.

Tightened that bearing, with gel-type superglue before I went any further.


Got the alt back together.Got it installed.


It has dropped from 15.96volts.... All the way down to......





15.4 volts.



Argh!

Ok, that's it, it's not the alt. It's not the regulator.

And that old alt would probably have lived a while longer. Now it's wasted.


I don't know any more now, than if I had just bought a new alt and installed it, and found the very same condition.



Read somewhere where the guy had the same problem, and it was the cable that goes from the alt, to the battery. The big one.

So, I built a whole new line, from some of that old jumper cable. Added that to what was there. Didn't just replace it. So that what was there is now reinforced. There's no way it isn't carrying enough voltage.... No difference.


Here's a strange thing...

With the truck turned off. And with the negative battery cables both disconnected...

There is 2.3 volts with the red probe on the B+... And the black probe on the alternator case, or any other ground, including the battery negative post.

How is that even possible?



I was starting to think the problem was in the wiring.

But after I saw that, I had a wild hunch. What if it's the batteries?

Could they somehow be grounded through the cases?



Should be a simple enough thing to test tomorrow. Swap in the brand new batteries from my other truck. And do a VERY quick test. I do NOT want to boil the new batteries.



If it's not the batteries, does anyone have any clues as to what it could be in the wiring?

Maybe I just need new connectors at the alternator. Maybe the problem is elsewhere.

 

[chillman88]

Now if the batteries are boiling you definitely have a problem but hear me out.

Have you tried a different voltmeter? I have occasionally had issues with one and if yours is wonky maybe it's hurting your troubleshooting. I had one with a bad battery and it's reading was off a few volts.

Just a thought, I'm at the point of looking at things that "shouldn't be" since you've ruled out what "should be".

How do the terminals in the plugs look?

Have you tried messing with the voltage sense wire? (I think it's the A wire).

 

[onetonjohn]

I'm not completely convinced you alternator and regulator are good out to the alternator case terminals, but let's assume your right.
What's left i the circuit that could go wrong?
Regulator sense logic could be reading incorrect battery voltage due to voltage drop from Battery to the Alternator input - but I thought you checked this. Some other voltage source is adding voltage on top of alternator supply voltage to battery.
OR...
maybe some problem in the alternator/regulator/housing/terminals or measurement error.
Am I missing something?