Voltage regulator?
- Thread starter Selahdoor
- Start date
onetonjohn
Full Access Member
I suppose you could disconnect + side of both batteries after truck is running and see what type of voltage you have. That would take batteries out of the equation.
DrCharles
Full Access Member
I don't recommend doing that. The resultant voltage spikes can blow out anything that is still connected. Don't know if the regulator or the alternator rectifiers can handle it either...
Results today. So far.
Did a video showing that there is about 2 volts between the B+ and any ground, even with both battery negative cables disconnected and isolated. (I may or may not post videos and/or pics later.)
Had to be almost zero amps, because a test light doesn't even faintly glow.
Developed a theory that the electrolyte in the batteries had formed a film on the batteries, and that film was allowing the passage of that tiny amount of voltage. Then wondered if maybe that was also somehow affecting the charging circuit on the alternator. (Don't ask me HOW, it's just a theory.
)
Took both batteries out. Cleaned them thoroughly with baking soda. Put chicken feed bags, (because they are plastic coated.) in both battery trays, then put the batteries back in and hooked up the positives only. Then did the test again.
.02volts now. Ok, still shouldn't be there, but that much doesn't concern me at all.
Hooked everything back up, got it started up... Still have the same problem.
Did the ASI test. The results will be shown in my diagram again, in a bit... The numbers though...
0.3 then, Battery voltage 0.3 3.47
A S I
Next theory.
At rest, engine off, before ever starting... Battery voltage was over 13.6v.
Ok, maybe the battery is just over voltage, and that is throwing off the alternator?
Turn on the headlights and everything else I can turn on, to drain the batteries down to something like 12.6v.
Left everything on for about half an hour. After maybe 5 minutes, the headlights went out. I joked that they must turn themselves off.
Now I have discovered they probably burned out. The high beams still work.
Ok. Started it back up again... and had a tiny bit of success.
Instead of charging at 15.6, it was charging at 14.7
So. Now we are on a track here.
Still thinking, still forming theories...
What if the batteries are just plain bad?
The alternator is struggling to charge them. It actually IS charging them. But they are so wonkered in their guts that they keep giving mixed signals. I'm charged! I'm dead! I'm mostly charged! I'm partly charged! I'm dead!"....
I'm thinking that could cause the problem. Ok, stop laughing. It could happen!
Now how to test this?
Do what I have not wanted to do.
Take out these old batteries, and replace them with my new batteries.
The batteries in the other truck had less than 100 miles on them. Brand new.
However that truck hasn't been started in over 6 months. Maybe close to a year.
So they were down to 4.7 volts. Both of them.
I installed them.
Then took a couple hours to get them charged up far enough to start the truck.
Hooked up the jumper cables from the camry to the truck.
Took the reading with the jumper cables hooked up. It was charging at.... 15.6 volts!
Ok, now I am convinced that my multimeter is probably wonky too.
Found my analog meter, and used BOTH to do my testing from here on out.
Got them charged up far enough to start the truck. Removed the jumper cables.
Charging at 17.3volts!!! WOW! It even went higher for a bit.
But that is the digital meter. The analog meter is very tiny, and very difficult for these old eyes to read. But I would swear it was charging at somewhere just over 14volts.
Ok, I am watching the batteries now. I REALLY REALLY don't want them to boil. What a waste of new batteries that would be.
I did the ASI test again. Here is my diagram with all the new numbers put in.
Ok, it should be obvious now, that with the old batteries in there, the readings were all wonky.
With the new batteries in there, the readings are what they are supposed to be.
Yet, with the new batteries in there and charging off the truck's own alternator the reading at the battery is over 18.7 volts.
And dropping.
Here is where I interject disparaging comments about harbor freight digital multimeters...
Yeah, the digital meter still read something over 18volts. Or right at 18 volts, after about ten minutes of charging from this alternator.
BUT... I hooked up the analog meter. The meter is very difficult for me to read, but I would SWEAR that at that point it was reading 14.2 or 14.3.
Since the ASI reading at that point was exactly what it was supposed to be as well... with that same meter... 7.0v, battery voltage, 7.0v, battery voltage... I am going to assume the analog is telling me the truth.
I think it was probably the batteries, all along.
Right now, I am taking a long break. Way too hot here.
Alternative reason for the break... The batteries read over 13volts at rest, after all that.
They were so low, that I think a bit of 'uber charge' like that, is to be expected. So now, I am just going to let them sit there for a while, and "balance themselves" internally.
IF... The batteries do settle down. And the system evens itself out... It is looking like I wasted a whole lot of time. And wasted a perfectly good alternator. All because of bad batteries, and a multimeter that lies.
Howsomever... I am choosing to take a different look at it all.
I learned a lot.
I have fortified that system in ways I may never have bothered to do, if I hadn't done all this.
I DID find a few faults in circuits elsewhere.
My "wait to start light" now works.
And I learned I had bad batteries and a deceitful multimeter.
Man, I hope those batteries even themselves out, and this problem is actually fixed.
I am going to be SO worried that the new batteries are going to boil...
Did a video showing that there is about 2 volts between the B+ and any ground, even with both battery negative cables disconnected and isolated. (I may or may not post videos and/or pics later.)
Had to be almost zero amps, because a test light doesn't even faintly glow.
Developed a theory that the electrolyte in the batteries had formed a film on the batteries, and that film was allowing the passage of that tiny amount of voltage. Then wondered if maybe that was also somehow affecting the charging circuit on the alternator. (Don't ask me HOW, it's just a theory.
)Took both batteries out. Cleaned them thoroughly with baking soda. Put chicken feed bags, (because they are plastic coated.) in both battery trays, then put the batteries back in and hooked up the positives only. Then did the test again.
.02volts now. Ok, still shouldn't be there, but that much doesn't concern me at all.
Hooked everything back up, got it started up... Still have the same problem.
Did the ASI test. The results will be shown in my diagram again, in a bit... The numbers though...
0.3 then, Battery voltage 0.3 3.47
A S I
Next theory.
At rest, engine off, before ever starting... Battery voltage was over 13.6v.
Ok, maybe the battery is just over voltage, and that is throwing off the alternator?
Turn on the headlights and everything else I can turn on, to drain the batteries down to something like 12.6v.
Left everything on for about half an hour. After maybe 5 minutes, the headlights went out. I joked that they must turn themselves off.
Now I have discovered they probably burned out. The high beams still work.
Ok. Started it back up again... and had a tiny bit of success.
Instead of charging at 15.6, it was charging at 14.7
So. Now we are on a track here.
Still thinking, still forming theories...
What if the batteries are just plain bad?
The alternator is struggling to charge them. It actually IS charging them. But they are so wonkered in their guts that they keep giving mixed signals. I'm charged! I'm dead! I'm mostly charged! I'm partly charged! I'm dead!"....
I'm thinking that could cause the problem. Ok, stop laughing. It could happen!
Now how to test this?
Do what I have not wanted to do.
Take out these old batteries, and replace them with my new batteries.
The batteries in the other truck had less than 100 miles on them. Brand new.
However that truck hasn't been started in over 6 months. Maybe close to a year.
So they were down to 4.7 volts. Both of them.
I installed them.
Then took a couple hours to get them charged up far enough to start the truck.
Hooked up the jumper cables from the camry to the truck.
Took the reading with the jumper cables hooked up. It was charging at.... 15.6 volts!
Ok, now I am convinced that my multimeter is probably wonky too.
Found my analog meter, and used BOTH to do my testing from here on out.
Got them charged up far enough to start the truck. Removed the jumper cables.
Charging at 17.3volts!!! WOW! It even went higher for a bit.
But that is the digital meter. The analog meter is very tiny, and very difficult for these old eyes to read. But I would swear it was charging at somewhere just over 14volts.
Ok, I am watching the batteries now. I REALLY REALLY don't want them to boil. What a waste of new batteries that would be.
I did the ASI test again. Here is my diagram with all the new numbers put in.
You must be registered for see images attach
Ok, it should be obvious now, that with the old batteries in there, the readings were all wonky.
With the new batteries in there, the readings are what they are supposed to be.
Yet, with the new batteries in there and charging off the truck's own alternator the reading at the battery is over 18.7 volts.
And dropping.
Here is where I interject disparaging comments about harbor freight digital multimeters...
Yeah, the digital meter still read something over 18volts. Or right at 18 volts, after about ten minutes of charging from this alternator.
BUT... I hooked up the analog meter. The meter is very difficult for me to read, but I would SWEAR that at that point it was reading 14.2 or 14.3.
Since the ASI reading at that point was exactly what it was supposed to be as well... with that same meter... 7.0v, battery voltage, 7.0v, battery voltage... I am going to assume the analog is telling me the truth.
I think it was probably the batteries, all along.
Right now, I am taking a long break. Way too hot here.
Alternative reason for the break... The batteries read over 13volts at rest, after all that.
They were so low, that I think a bit of 'uber charge' like that, is to be expected. So now, I am just going to let them sit there for a while, and "balance themselves" internally.
IF... The batteries do settle down. And the system evens itself out... It is looking like I wasted a whole lot of time. And wasted a perfectly good alternator. All because of bad batteries, and a multimeter that lies.
Howsomever... I am choosing to take a different look at it all.
I learned a lot.
I have fortified that system in ways I may never have bothered to do, if I hadn't done all this.
I DID find a few faults in circuits elsewhere.
My "wait to start light" now works.
And I learned I had bad batteries and a deceitful multimeter.
Man, I hope those batteries even themselves out, and this problem is actually fixed.
I am going to be SO worried that the new batteries are going to boil...
This is a 92. It won't hurt anything to remove the positive cables.
Removing the positive cables while it is running will tell you whether your alternator is good or not. If it keeps running with the battery positives off, your alternator is working.
I don't see what that will tell you about your batteries. Now if you disconnected and isolated the alternator, you'd get some idea of the health of your batteries by how long it runs, and how much of a load it will handle.
onetonjohn
Full Access Member
Why would you get a voltage spike? Isn't the regulator reading the 15V put out by the Alt. The voltage spike would have to be created by the alternator, and couldn't be worse then when we grounded the sense input to regulator - or am I missing something.
I believe at that point, the (new) batteries were just barely able to start the truck.
They had been all the way down to 4.7 volts.
Here is my, possibly wrong, understanding of amps and volts in this battery. Kind of a simplistic paraphrase of how I see it.
The volts are like water. The amps are like jello.
The volts can fill up, and spread around very quickly. The amps take a bit longer to move around, and fill the volume.
I believe it had just gotten enough amps in there to start the truck. (Also had to cycle the GPs first.)
Now, it is still starving for amps. So the alternator spiked to peak, for a short while, trying to feed those amps back into the battery.
I do hope that once the "jello" amps have had a bit of time to settle out into the battery, and even out, the entire system will settle down and work normally.
They had been all the way down to 4.7 volts.
Here is my, possibly wrong, understanding of amps and volts in this battery. Kind of a simplistic paraphrase of how I see it.
The volts are like water. The amps are like jello.
The volts can fill up, and spread around very quickly. The amps take a bit longer to move around, and fill the volume.
I believe it had just gotten enough amps in there to start the truck. (Also had to cycle the GPs first.)
Now, it is still starving for amps. So the alternator spiked to peak, for a short while, trying to feed those amps back into the battery.
I do hope that once the "jello" amps have had a bit of time to settle out into the battery, and even out, the entire system will settle down and work normally.
onetonjohn
Full Access Member
Good and cheap. Pick one. I like the Fluke 115. It's good to 1mV (good enough for me), and it's a quality meter. I use it all the time - yeah it costs a bit more than other meters, but it's a tool you need fairly often, it's well made, and I expect it to use it a long time.
Get an amp meter, and read what the alternator is putting out. If it’s putting out full capacity when the voltage is high, then it’s a control circuit issue. If it’s not putting out over 100 amps, then it’s your batteries.
BeastMaster
Full Access Member
I wish I had the internal schematic of the regulator. It has three connections... A, S, and I. Battery voltage can be implied from any of them!
A is most direct by a long shot.
S ... If you look at it , it's a half sine wave, single phase, whose peak voltage is 0.7 volts ( one diode drop ), over battery voltage.
I ... This is pulled to battery voltage by the battery indicator lamp to the dash panel buss powered via key-on. I would consider it a poor place to measure as there are way too many things to contaminate the reading.. like loads on the panel bus and the regulator itself can't be calling for indicator on while taking the reading..
This smirks like a grounding problem, but we've been barking up that tree so long the neighbors are complaining.
I wonder how a small 12 volt test lamp between the A and F screw behaves during run. It should come on, relatively bright, right after start, then dim and extinguish as battery goes to 14 V.
This thing seems to act like the regulator can't shut it down, and someone sneaking you an alnico rotor just to foul up your day is not gonna happen ( then you have a permanent magnet in the rotor and you could not shut it off. )
What happens if you run the alternator with the three pin ASI disconnected?
Common sense says the alternator will put nothing out. But little of what you are seeing makes any sense to me. It can't happen, but it is.
I wish I could drive over. It would be worth to me just to see this thing for myself.
A is most direct by a long shot.
S ... If you look at it , it's a half sine wave, single phase, whose peak voltage is 0.7 volts ( one diode drop ), over battery voltage.
I ... This is pulled to battery voltage by the battery indicator lamp to the dash panel buss powered via key-on. I would consider it a poor place to measure as there are way too many things to contaminate the reading.. like loads on the panel bus and the regulator itself can't be calling for indicator on while taking the reading..
This smirks like a grounding problem, but we've been barking up that tree so long the neighbors are complaining.
I wonder how a small 12 volt test lamp between the A and F screw behaves during run. It should come on, relatively bright, right after start, then dim and extinguish as battery goes to 14 V.
This thing seems to act like the regulator can't shut it down, and someone sneaking you an alnico rotor just to foul up your day is not gonna happen ( then you have a permanent magnet in the rotor and you could not shut it off. )
What happens if you run the alternator with the three pin ASI disconnected?
Common sense says the alternator will put nothing out. But little of what you are seeing makes any sense to me. It can't happen, but it is.
I wish I could drive over. It would be worth to me just to see this thing for myself.
Borrowed a known good meter from a friend of mine. (Now that I have actually solved the problem. )
Let the batteries 'rest' for over an hour.
Tested batteries at rest. 12.3 volts.
Started the truck. It started right up, with no hesitation, as if I had just turned it off.
With it running....
14.8 volts. Slowly went down to 14.3 volts. And stayed there.
ASI test...
7.1 volts..... BV....... 7.1v....... BV.
Everything seems to be working now, exactly as it is supposed to.
I may invest in some quick battery disconnect terminals, so I can open the hood and twist the knobs on the negative terminals to disconnect the negatives whenever it is going to be parked. Just to be totally OCD about it.
Now, I have to decide whether to take an hour to pack away all my tools, and go take a short test ride...
Or continue working on the circuits that need it.
Yeah. I'll work on the circuits.
)Let the batteries 'rest' for over an hour.
Tested batteries at rest. 12.3 volts.
Started the truck. It started right up, with no hesitation, as if I had just turned it off.
With it running....
14.8 volts. Slowly went down to 14.3 volts. And stayed there.
ASI test...
7.1 volts..... BV....... 7.1v....... BV.
Everything seems to be working now, exactly as it is supposed to.
I may invest in some quick battery disconnect terminals, so I can open the hood and twist the knobs on the negative terminals to disconnect the negatives whenever it is going to be parked. Just to be totally OCD about it.
Now, I have to decide whether to take an hour to pack away all my tools, and go take a short test ride...
Or continue working on the circuits that need it.
Yeah. I'll work on the circuits.
BeastMaster
Full Access Member
Selah... About the volts, amps, and water analogies...
Think of volts like pressure.
Think of amps like a flow rate.
Think of resistance like a blockage that resists flow.
Now, a battery is kinda like a water tower. It may take 140 PSI to get water up and into the tank. You get it back at 140 PSI as long as there's any water up there, but if there isn't any, you get none. Dead tower. If you put too much up there, it takes 150 PSI, and overflows. Not good.
Your water level controller is supposed to watch the tank and turn on the pump if the tank pressure drops. And turn it off before the tank runs over.
Amps is like how many gallons per hour your pump is putting out, but it has to put it out with sufficient Voltage to get it up to the tank.
Your toilet and shower both run from house pressure ( battery voltage ), but your shower probably uses far more flow rate (amps), and you eventually pay for your water in how many gallons you used, like you pay for your electricity in volts x amps x time , as KiloWatt hours. A Watt is a volt x amp. 12 volts x 3 amp is a 36 Watt bulb.
Run it for an hour, and you've burned 36 watt-hours of energy.
Yeh, we electronicers speak a language all our own, then lament that no one, especially women and MBAs, understand us.
Think of volts like pressure.
Think of amps like a flow rate.
Think of resistance like a blockage that resists flow.
Now, a battery is kinda like a water tower. It may take 140 PSI to get water up and into the tank. You get it back at 140 PSI as long as there's any water up there, but if there isn't any, you get none. Dead tower. If you put too much up there, it takes 150 PSI, and overflows. Not good.
Your water level controller is supposed to watch the tank and turn on the pump if the tank pressure drops. And turn it off before the tank runs over.
Amps is like how many gallons per hour your pump is putting out, but it has to put it out with sufficient Voltage to get it up to the tank.
Your toilet and shower both run from house pressure ( battery voltage ), but your shower probably uses far more flow rate (amps), and you eventually pay for your water in how many gallons you used, like you pay for your electricity in volts x amps x time , as KiloWatt hours. A Watt is a volt x amp. 12 volts x 3 amp is a 36 Watt bulb.
Run it for an hour, and you've burned 36 watt-hours of energy.
Yeh, we electronicers speak a language all our own, then lament that no one, especially women and MBAs, understand us.
THANK YOU! Makes more sense than jello and water.
Yeah, went back out and dinked with everything for a while again.
Looks like the battery/alternator problem is solved. And probably in much better condition because of everything I did.
Then I replaced the headlight switch. Which... Fixed the headlights. New switch, new connector.
I guess I should 'switch' back over to my build thread, now that I have solved this.
See yall over there...
BeastMaster
Full Access Member
I am not so convinced you've nailed this yet. You have batteries that need charging. Don't button this thing up until those batteries become fully charged.
Will it overflow or throttle back?
I'd watch that thing like a hawk.
It would sure be nice if you were closer. This is the kind of stuff I did for 40 years before I got into the snit with the MBA.
Will it overflow or throttle back?
I'd watch that thing like a hawk.
It would sure be nice if you were closer. This is the kind of stuff I did for 40 years before I got into the snit with the MBA.
