Original OE Starter Woes... getting tired

Old Goat

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I mentioned it because Cuby said it will warm up the oil some.
in post#2
Only when circulating through the warmed up engine though.
The oil will still be the same temp as the air temp.


Goat
 

Cubey

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I mentioned it because Cuby said it will warm up the oil some.
in post#2
Only when circulating through the warmed up engine though.
The oil will still be the same temp as the air temp.


Goat
I'd think that it would radiate some heat into the oil pan, heating the oil some too. not as much as the coolant, but still
 

HammerDown

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I love the sound of a new starter in the morning!
Yea buddy!
I would have like to get the smaller Power Master starter but honestly I couldn't imagine it spinning my 7.3 any faster vs this remanufactured Mitsubishi OE.
 

Black dawg

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Yea buddy!
I would have like to get the smaller Power Master starter but honestly I couldn't imagine it spinning my 7.3 any faster vs this remanufactured Mitsubishi OE.
They dont spin it any faster. You dont. Get any more cranking speed until you move up to the 4.0kw nippondenso starter, but as far as I have seen, they are all chinese.

The nippondenso style starters do better with low voltage, but most of them are in the 2 to 2.5kw range. The factory mitsu starter is 3.6kw. It is a good starter, but doesnt handle low voltage well, and needs a nearly perfect ring gear to never grind.
 

Black dawg

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There are also 2.5 kw mitsu starters, and they do suck. Have to look at specs.....if they are even accurate. Had to look a bit to get an actual 3.5kw mitsu starter. If I remember correctly, the standard napa reman mitsu is 2 or 2.5kw. And the napa reman nippondenso is 2kw. Cranking speed is ok with both of those, but noticeably better with the 3.6kw mitsu.

The fastest cranking starter is actually that giant direct drive delco that the 6.9s came with. But they need everything to be perfect or perfomance falls off drastically.
 

Cubey

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There are also 2.5 kw mitsu starters, and they do suck. Have to look at specs.....if they are even accurate. Had to look a bit to get an actual 3.5kw mitsu starter. If I remember correctly, the standard napa reman mitsu is 2 or 2.5kw. And the napa reman nippondenso is 2kw. Cranking speed is ok with both of those, but noticeably better with the 3.6kw mitsu.

The fastest cranking starter is actually that giant direct drive delco that the 6.9s came with. But they need everything to be perfect or perfomance falls off drastically.
O'Reilly's says 3.6kw Mitsubishi in the description but it lacks the nose cone. but 20% off for ship to home and lifetime warranty.

 

BeastMaster

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About welding cable...I understand it's insulation disintegrates if Diesel fuel gets on it.



Noted: "EDPM" type insulation is noted for being incompatible with diesel fuel?



Edit:

I found the compatibility chart for various rubbers with various chemicals. Diesel fuel is listed on the left, while EDPM is one of the rubbers listed. You may find this handy.


/ Edit end


I only have "book learnin'" on this and bring it up only for discussion. I have been looking into welding cable myself should I revamp my beast...but am a bit concerned as I have seen other plastics "rot" upon exposure to other plastics or solvents.

I have even considered running the hot battery rail inside fuel hose...just using it as diesel-fuel resistant insulation.

I am not so concerned with this on the ground cables - if the ground shorts to ground, no biggie ( yes, the ground cables have to be really heavy too...but only from the engine block to the battery negatives - #6 oughta be fine for jumpering engine ground to frame ground. The elephants in the room are the batteries, starter motor, glow plugs, and alternator, all of which use the engine ground.

I guess I am fishing for comments, as this is only long term plans for me. I have no experience rewiring these things and have to fall back on my experiences on wiring for oil refineries - horse of a different color but the underlying physics of current flows, voltage drops, and grounding design are very similar. If not done right, one can get the most puzzling malfunctions imaginable.

Our old machines have some interesting things to consider...inductive kickbacks from the starter motor, A/C clutch, horn, and alternator load dumps. Although the old school electrical doesn't give a hoot, these old-school power systems will drive newer solid-state electronics bonkers.
 
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ISPKI

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All great replies, thanks.
Due to 'time' and accessibility
I'll probably get the Napa Mitsubishi reman which I believe is what my OE is or, is it Prestolite?
And just mentioning, I have some 3/8 - 7/16 blue welding cable, maybe a little over kill but maybe it would make for good battery cable's???
that welding cable is ~2/0-3/0 depending on how you measured it. Certainly not overkill for these trucks. You actually cant use a large enough cable to be considered overkill. The starters will usually draw ~200-250amps initially and the draw increases as the starter cycles due to the heat build up in the motor. Powermaster did a 6 cycle test and on the 6th cycle, the starter was drawing upwards of 700amps.

Fine strand 3/0 welding cable is rated to handle around 230amps, 4/0 goes up to a little over 300. Technically the starter will start off drawing just under the rating for 3/0 but rapidly exceed the rating which is why the battery cables heat up while cranking. Even 4/0 isnt actually rated to handle the draw of these starters and thats as big as you're going to get without getting into MCM cabling.

The larger the cable, the longer it will survive thermal cycling. When copper is thermal cycled (rapid heating and cooling) it hardens. Everytime it cycles, it gets a bit harder, a bit more brittle, and degrades. The thermal cycling occurs when the cable flows more amperage than its rated for. The highest resistance points are at the terminals, so that heats up and becomes brittle over the years, hence why the ends tend to be so crusty, shielding falls apart, etc. This is a big reason why the ends are not supposed to be soldered. The reheating wont reflow the solder, but it will reflow the flux residue and the flux attracts moisture and corrodes the strands.
 

HammerDown

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that welding cable is ~2/0-3/0 depending on how you measured it. Certainly not overkill for these trucks. You actually cant use a large enough cable to be considered overkill. The starters will usually draw ~200-250amps initially and the draw increases as the starter cycles due to the heat build up in the motor. Powermaster did a 6 cycle test and on the 6th cycle, the starter was drawing upwards of 700amps.

Fine strand 3/0 welding cable is rated to handle around 230amps, 4/0 goes up to a little over 300. Technically the starter will start off drawing just under the rating for 3/0 but rapidly exceed the rating which is why the battery cables heat up while cranking. Even 4/0 isnt actually rated to handle the draw of these starters and thats as big as you're going to get without getting into MCM cabling.

The larger the cable, the longer it will survive thermal cycling. When copper is thermal cycled (rapid heating and cooling) it hardens. Everytime it cycles, it gets a bit harder, a bit more brittle, and degrades. The thermal cycling occurs when the cable flows more amperage than its rated for. The highest resistance points are at the terminals, so that heats up and becomes brittle over the years, hence why the ends tend to be so crusty, shielding falls apart, etc. This is a big reason why the ends are not supposed to be soldered. The reheating wont reflow the solder, but it will reflow the flux residue and the flux attracts moisture and corrodes the strands.
Great info... thanks!
 

BeastMaster

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The larger the cable, the longer it will survive thermal cycling. When copper is thermal cycled (rapid heating and cooling) it hardens. Everytime it cycles, it gets a bit harder, a bit more brittle, and degrades. The thermal cycling occurs when the cable flows more amperage than its rated for. The highest resistance points are at the terminals, so that heats up and becomes brittle over the years, hence why the ends tend to be so crusty, shielding falls apart, etc. This is a big reason why the ends are not supposed to be soldered. The reheating wont reflow the solder, but it will reflow the flux residue and the flux attracts moisture and corrodes the strands
Yes, I have noticed that in automotive starting circuits. I had worked with wiring in a refinery and never remember seeing similar wiring degradation. Now, it makes perfect sense. Refinery stuff was designed for continuous run. I didn't think it was possible for copper wire to just "wear out", until a mechanic friend let me disassemble a main battery cable that had a particularly nasty case of "battery cable rot". Brittle as all high heaven at the battery end. I blamed battery acid, outgassing, and wicking.

I wonder if the solder failures are due to using plumbing (acid) flux. Acid based fluxes ( like zinc chloride ) are well known in electronic applications to be a big no-no.

I re-did part of my glow plug system and liberally used 63/37 eutectic solder, as an electrically conductive sealant, intermetallic wetting agent, mechanical bonding agent, heat transfer agent, and water displacer ... and a bit of thin silicone sealant to wick up the wire. ( AWG #6 ) before final cover with heatshrink. I am talking first fluxed, then crimped, then soldered so the solder would wick in and fill any voids, just to make sure water couldn't get in later. I had done this as the previous connection was at the verge of failure and I was blaming water wicking into the previous crimp, initiating corrosion, which initiated localized hot spots...and I was attempting to nip a repeat of that in the bud by filling up all the voids with solder and silicone.

I used Rosin flux that's not hygroscopic or corrosive. It's made for electronics work.

I don't know if I did the right thing, I probably won't live long enough to find out. I have taken many very old things apart that were made this way and they were still sound as water hadn't got into it.

You just confirmed my suspicions on how such a massive battery wire could fail in such a manner. I could not see Corrosion alone causing what I saw. But work hardening does.

I now speculate a lot of our "intermittent duty" electronics fails for this very same thing.
 

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