Electric radiator fans on a idi?

[jaluhn83]

Electric fans work okay most of the time for most people.... problem is that small amount of time where they don't. If you're in Alaska you're problem fine even running heavy.... or if you never pull heavy even in the desert you should be fine. But can you say for sure that you'll never be towing heavy on a steep hill in warm weather? The thing to realize is that you get a very large amount of airflow simply due to road speed - at 60 mph a rough calculation give ~16,000 cfm. So if you can keep up a decent speed you have enough airflow for cooling even at high load. But when you slow down you start to loose that which is where the fan comes in. However, if the fan isn't strong enough and it starts to overheat you slow down more... losing more airflow - so until you slow down enough to where the heat rejection from the engine load is low enough that the fan can move enough air you'll continue to overheat. In practice this means going up hill very very slowly or stopping to cool the engine frequently - neither of which are easy/safe in many situations. This also means that it's easy to think you have enough cooling air and not actually have enough should you get caught by the wrong conditions and start the overheating cycle....

IMHO, the electric fan setup just isn't worthwhile for most rigs. If you can live with the potential limitations than it's workable, but at the same time you really don't gain anything. The cost of the fan(s), wiring, controls, upgraded alternator, etc is likely going to not be much less than a replacement fan clutch should that be the concern, and IMHO most fan clutches can be fixed with the $4 fan trick (refilling the oil) for much less cost and hassle anyway. Another reason i have seen is to save power/fuel, which is logical but overlooks the actual numbers. From rough calculations I expect the actual fan power to be something on the order of 5-10hp fully locked, which is fairly negligible overall considering other losses, wind area, etc. Further, under most conditions it's far less - likely on the order of 1 hp or less unlocked, which is again minimal.

You can also install thin smaller fans in front of the radiator which is what I have - this give a speed/rpm independent air flow for the AC condenser and is relatively cheap and easy.

 

[79jasper]

The electric fan clutch is nice. The psd guys are doing it.
I thought I saw someone put one on their idi though. But had to make an adapter.
For the psd, you use the factory fan. Any others will hit the radiator.
Another common 7.3 psd upgrade is using the 6.0 psd fan.

Sent from my SM-T537R4 using Tapatalk

 

[lotzagoodstuff]

I ran a whole summer, daily driven, with no fan whatsoever. In East Texas. Electric fans would help out when speeds were below 10mph (where the truck would gain coolant temp as there wasn't enough flow across the radiator). I also didn't tow, but I know I couldn't tow any sort of weight with that setup/temps. My sender is in the top of the water pump though, so I see lower temps on the gauge than the overheat sensor location.

Like Justin, I ran my truck for a couple years with no fan, and then I put in a Lincoln Mark IIIV fan, which is very similar to the Taurus/Sable fan. Problem is I never pulled anything super heavy in hot weather up a hill, but I will say this: the Mark IIIV fan fits pretty tight but it does fit with the factory shroud on it, and it's two speed and even on the low speed they move a lot of air. The Lincoln fan also has a super low draw electric motor, I believe it was made by Siemens. They never die and they are a snap to wire up. And when you pull out that giant factory clutch and fan, you will understand how power robbing it is as it is both giant and heavy.

Two things I would do over if I had the chance: spend the money on the Delta controller (they are very nice and relatively inexpensive) and do some load testing up a steep hill with a nice wide shoulder to pull off and stop should your coolant temps (or EGTs) get uncomfortable. That's the super nice part about electric fans: if you get hot, you can shut down, continue to cool off via electric fan, and cycle your coolant a few times instead of letting your engine heat soak everything.

Lastly: don't waste your time with any aftermarket plastic fantastic universal fan. They don't move enough air for an IDI. Some of the newer fully integrated systems are super nice, but you are going to pay for those systems.

Good luck, this is a great subject that deserves more attention.

 

[franklin2]

Is the threaded fan connection a Ford thing or a International thing? If it was a Ford piece I wonder does International make a more conventional waterpump for a different application that possibly the electric clutch would fit or be easier to adapt.

You can sort of tell what Ford put on these engines, and what International put on the engine. Everything Ford put on it seems to have metric bolts.

 

[cpdenton]

Towing heavy, no electric fan will work. Mechanical fans only. IIRC, a locked mechanical fan can move over 10,000 cfm's.

Here is my thing. I have seen so many different posts on how much air the mechanical fan can move. Some say 10000, some say over 20000. I think it can move a lot of air. I have heard mine lock up and it moves plenty of air....but does it HAVE to move that much air? It cools it down somewhat quickly...could you get effective cooling at say, 7000 CFM?

The reason I went to electric is simple. On the interstate, when pulling my camper, my fan would kick in while driving in overdrive. I would have to push the engine harder then, meaning higher EGTs, which in turn produce higher coolant temps. It was a vicious cycle. Now, I can drive all day at highway speeds and I don't get in to that vicious cycle that I was seeing. Coolant temps stay under control as long as I stay at speed.

My windstar fans almost do the job fine. The mark viii fan looks like a good option too. But I am thinking about a twist on this option. If I can find 2 of these Lincoln fans, I intend to mount them both and use my delta control to run them.

The size dimensions I have seen online make it very close to possible to put them on our radiator.

Perhaps offset like this. * .

3G alternator hasn't given me any problems on power so far either.

 

[jaluhn83]

I thought I saw someone put one on their idi though. But had to make an adapter.

That's mine. The adapter part was because the unit I got was mislabeled and was actually a PSD clutch with the 1.25-16 RH thread so I had to bore it out and put in an insert. There is a 1.25-18 LH option out there that's for a DT466.

 

[jaluhn83]

Is the threaded fan connection a Ford thing or a International thing? If it was a Ford piece I wonder does International make a more conventional waterpump for a different application that possibly the electric clutch would fit or be easier to adapt.

You can sort of tell what Ford put on these engines, and what International put on the engine. Everything Ford put on it seems to have metric bolts.

Ford & IH water pumps are the same threads. To the best of my knowledge, there isn't any other options out there. A decent machinist could make a new water pump shaft with a RH thread, **but** then you have a problem with the fan unscrewing unless you changed everything around to also reverse the direction of rotation of the water pump as well.

If you're going to that much work it makes just as much sense to modify the fan clutch to the correct idi thread. Another option that I looked at was to delete the threaded nose entirely and figure out a clutch mounting the used the pulley flange and bolts. Not sure how hard this would actually be.

 

[jaluhn83]

Here is my thing. I have seen so many different posts on how much air the mechanical fan can move. Some say 10000, some say over 20000. I think it can move a lot of air. I have heard mine lock up and it moves plenty of air....but does it HAVE to move that much air? It cools it down somewhat quickly...could you get effective cooling at say, 7000 CFM?

To the best of my knowledge there isn't any definitive information out there for the fan volume, everyone just makes up numbers. It's going to depend on fan rpm (a function of the degree of clutch lock up and engine rpm) which makes it hard to measure. I have a plan to get some actual measurements, however I haven't done it yet.

The viscous fan clutch is designed to have a varying lock up factor so that it only moves as much air as needed - as it gets hotter it will increasingly get more locked up. How well it actually does that is another question, but it should work that way - thus you only get as much airflow as you need.

The reason I went to electric is simple. On the interstate, when pulling my camper, my fan would kick in while driving in overdrive. I would have to push the engine harder then, meaning higher EGTs, which in turn produce higher coolant temps. It was a vicious cycle. Now, I can drive all day at highway speeds and I don't get in to that vicious cycle that I was seeing. Coolant temps stay under control as long as I stay at speed.

If your fan clutch is locking up it's an indication that either it's warm enough to need it assuming it's working right. Could be a wonky clutch. However, your logic of the fan clutch causing a heating cycle is invalid because the fan doesn't take that much power. It makes a lot of noise, but isn't going to be enough of an engine load to make much difference. Even if you can feel the extra load (some say they can, I never have even on a non turbo truck) that doesn't mean it's enough to materially effect the engine heat output. I suspect what you were seeing is either something wonky in the temperature gauge or some other cooling system issue. The amount of load from the fan is likely not much more than the Ac compressor kicking on or a small gust of wind - not enough to cause problems.

 

[FORDF250HDXLT]

Towing heavy, no electric fan will work. Mechanical fans only. IIRC, a locked mechanical fan can move over 10,000 cfm's.

do you have personal experience or is this an assumption? your comment is basically telling us that have and are doing it,that we're lying.
ok.i don't run at max gross that often (probably way more often that i know though lol) but pretty heavy overall with a load of chips on top of my 9k truck (with two guys and all my tools and gear in it) plus the wood chipper and sometimes heavier with the bed full of wood and iv got the chipper (where the customer wanted the chips left in a pile,but the wood hauled off.)
simply saying they wont work in a blanket statement,im sorry it's just false.i know this because iv been proven your statement false for years now.

If your fan clutch is locking up it's an indication that either it's warm enough to need it assuming it's working right. Could be a wonky clutch. However, your logic of the fan clutch causing a heating cycle is invalid because the fan doesn't take that much power. It makes a lot of noise, but isn't going to be enough of an engine load to make much difference. Even if you can feel the extra load (some say they can, I never have even on a non turbo truck) that doesn't mean it's enough to materially effect the engine heat output. I suspect what you were seeing is either something wonky in the temperature gauge or some other cooling system issue. The amount of load from the fan is likely not much more than the Ac compressor kicking on or a small gust of wind - not enough to cause problems.

so because you don't feel the significant amount of power loss while hauling or towing heavy uphill,this means the problems reported by so many must be a problem with their trucks and their reports are flawed.it's all in their minds? lol
iv done a lot of research on this.there are many,many idi owners who feel a hefty amount of power drained when the clutch kicks in under load,pulling grades.

 

[cpdenton]

The amount of load from the fan is likely not much more than the Ac compressor kicking on or a small gust of wind - not enough to cause problems.

I have argued this point before on another thread. This is wrong on my truck. I drove it and know what I felt. It was WAY more draw than the AC compressor.

If mechanical fans weren't a HP robbing device, why are new trucks going to electric fans?

Mechanical fans are great. They work, period. The design is good. No arguments from me there, but I want something better and will continue to search for the correct solution for my truck.

 

[snicklas]

Not to argue the electric vs mechanical fans. But as far as I know on all pickup and larger diesels the fan for engine cooling is done by a huge engine driven fan, even including the new 6.7 PSD's and all medium and Class 8 rigs. Now gassers, and little diesels (My 91 VW IDI has an electric fan....) have gone to electric fan. If I remember correctly, my Dad's 12 302 V-8 F-150 has an electric fan.... So, if electric fans are the "better option" in the present day, there MUST be a reason the OEM's are still going "Old School" on the fans. Now things have changed, my 6.0 has a huge like 7 or 9 blade plastic fan, and and electric clutch, but is it still on the water pump driven by the belt....... not trying to argue..... just sayin..........

 

[cpdenton]

True snicklas. Point taken. They have a lot more power than we do too.

 

[dunk]

The amount of load from the fan is likely not much more than the Ac compressor kicking on or a small gust of wind - not enough to cause problems.

I've never had a vehicle with air conditioning so I wouldn't know what that's like. I have had York compressors for compressing air but only used at idle on a toggle and they will drop the RPM slightly. Now when the fan on my IDI locks up such as when towing up a long grade on a warm summer day it does feel like a strong gust of headwind. That is not a negligible slowdown in an already underpowered vehicle. Even my 460 truck on a real windy day traveling into a strong steady wind required some extra throttle to maintain speed. The difference is the 460 is already doing 70 and has plenty of pedal left before hitting the floor. The IDI has been on the floor since the start of the grade and doesn't have any more, to make matters worse it's only doing 35-40 MPH and is running against a ticking clock before I have to let off as EGT climbs. Not having that equivalent to a strong headwind would be greatly beneficial.

Now if it was on level ground or had enough torque to do the job properly that "strong headwind" wouldn't matter. That is why I consider an electric fan. Yes the alternator will load up the engine but I'd imagine the batteries can act as a sort of buffer so the instant extra drag on the engine isn't as much. Is it worth a few hundred and weekend? Absolutely, if I don't have to worry about overheating. Added bonus can be quicker warmup in winter. Is it worth $900 for an electromechanical clutch? Not for me, but I do like that solution. For sub $500 I might be in if it's a fairly easy conversion.

 

[FordGuy100]

do you have personal experience or is this an assumption? your comment is basically telling us that have and are doing it,that we're lying.
ok.i don't run at max gross that often (probably way more often that i know though lol) but pretty heavy overall with a load of chips on top of my 9k truck (with two guys and all my tools and gear in it) plus the wood chipper and sometimes heavier with the bed full of wood and iv got the chipper (where the customer wanted the chips left in a pile,but the wood hauled off.)
simply saying they wont work in a blanket statement,im sorry it's just false.i know this because iv been proven your statement false for years now.



so because you don't feel the significant amount of power loss while hauling or towing heavy uphill,this means the problems reported by so many must be a problem with their trucks and their reports are flawed.it's all in their minds? lol
iv done a lot of research on this.there are many,many idi owners who feel a hefty amount of power drained when the clutch kicks in under load,pulling grades.

Yes its a blanket statement, and I will concede that you have more experience. But, our definitions of towing heavy are different, and in different area's of the country. While there may be decent grades out in the East, over here we a ton of 6% long grades. While your setup is not great aerodynamically, it should be better off than a truck + a large frontal area trailer.

I'm not argueing with you. I'm just saying in the dead of summer, going up a 5+ mile 6% grade, pulling a 8K plus trailer, I dont see an eletric fan working well. Especially if the truck in question doesn't have the power to hold speed, which in turn allows less airflow through the radiator, a viscous cycle.

It will be different for different people. The most my truck has ever hauled trailer wise was 7-8K, and in winter time my water temps rose from 190 to 215/220 degrees pulling a several long mile grade (stock mechanical fan, champion 3 row radiator). And that's with a 6.9 which cools better intrinsically. On the other hand, when my parents use to have a slide in camper plus tow a 21' boat across the mountain ranges here in a CCLB OBS, gross was around 21K. There would be no way to keep that cool with an electric fan.

 

[CDX825]

The International trucks with IDIs used a 4 bolt fan clutch setup instead of the thread on clutch.