Electric radiator fans on a idi?

[jaluhn83]

so because you don't feel the significant amount of power loss while hauling or towing heavy uphill,this means the problems reported by so many must be a problem with their trucks and their reports are flawed.it's all in their minds? lol
iv done a lot of research on this.there are many,many idi owners who feel a hefty amount of power drained when the clutch kicks in under load,pulling grades.

Never said they were lying.... but being able to "feel" the fan engagement doesn't necessarily correlate to there being enough of a power drain to cause performance issues. Further, being able to feel it indicates to me a concern in the function of the clutch, since it should not suddenly lock up, but rather should as designed be a progressive increase in fan speed with temperature.

My power estimates come from this site:
http://www.freecalc.com/fansfram.htm
Using 15,000 CFM for a ballpark number I come up with a static discharge pressure of 1.4 in h20, which gives 9.4 hp with a 35% efficiency. 15k CFM would give a ~55 MPH exit velocity from the fan, which seems a fair bit high to me based on ballpark estimates with my truck. (Since I can lock the fan up manually I can check this)
Even using conservative number, I still come up with <10 hp to run the fan. With the rated hp of an idi being 160-175 stock, that means the fan is about 1/16 of the engine full power. While this may be noticeable, it's not going to make that much difference. Now, with a unhealthy engine that's only making say 100hp, then that fraction goes up which may be why some claim to feel it more than others. Likewise, with a turbo that fraction goes down, so it becomes less noticeable. Granted, engine HP will go down with elevation and at lower rpm, but so too will the fan power.

Further, that power is going to something important - keeping the engine cool. With a properly functioning clutch, the fan should only be coming on when the engine gets hot - and also going off when it cools. So if it's coming on it's because the engine is working hard enough to need extra cooling, and if it happens that this is enough to cool it back off again, the clutch should disengage.

I also base this on my experienced with both stock and turboed trucks. My finding has always been that I'm limited my water temp, not EGTs, and the best way to keep the coolant temps down is the stock fan. I have noticed a substantial decrease in coolant temps with the electric clutch and consequently been able to pull a bit harder on hills where I would have had to slow down without the manual clutch. Likewise, with a weak clutch I've seen coolant temps come up very quickly, limiting me substantially.

My point is that seat of the pants feelings may not really capture the entirety of the issue, and that I think the power/mileage loss from a properly working stock fan setup is significantly less than many believe.

That being said, electric fans are certainly a workable option for some. I would suggest the benefit is less than commonly held, and the potential cost in cooling is substantial.

 

[jaluhn83]

If mechanical fans weren't a HP robbing device, why are new trucks going to electric fans?

Unless I'm much mistaken, they aren't. Cars have been using them for years, but there's several reasons for that, among others the fact that a conventional mechanical fan is impractical for a FWD transverse engine, which is what 90+% of cars are. Yes, there are efficiency and power reasons, but remember that in the car world very small increases in fuel efficiency and emissions are worthwhile due to the various regulations. IIRC, emissions reasons are the main reason for the conversion, not efficiency of the power used to turn the fan.

Further, a car can manage with a much lower airflow since it's never going to be slogging up a hill under a heavy load like a truck. Very rarely will a car see the high load low speed conditions that tax the cooling fan to it's limits, so a lower flowrate can be accepted. For a truck, the low road speed high load condition is going to define the minimum cooling airflow required, and this is larger than what an economic electric fan can do. If you relax this requirement, then electric fan can work, and this is what folks are doing on the idis, but at the end of the day you're going to lose a substantial amount of cooling capability doing this. How much and what the effect is is much harder to quantify.

 

[79jasper]

I've been able to feel being dragged down while towing heavy. Usually a down shift and higher rpms will help it though.
One (being the most noticeable) was a 2000 duramax 3/4 ton hauling a 93 F350 crew cab with a fairly heavy flatbed, and the trailer was pretty heavy too. And if i remember correctly, those have the electric fan clutch. I was coming from St Clair Missouri to Oklahoma. Up some of the long grades, the temp Guage would climb to a certain point then bam, fan kicks in and drags down a little bit. Only until it got cooled off enough, then it would go back off.
That was leaving cruise on with it in the tow/haul Mode. After a while I just started putting the pedal down to downshift a gear, which definitely helped.
I can feel it in my psd. Well, used to. I'm running fan less now. No fan + hotter thermostat, you wouldn't believe the difference in power/mileage. I went from using about a full tank a week on summer fuel, to just a hair over half a tank a week winter fuel. Same route, same times of day, same driving styles, etc.

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[Sir AxleRod]

Forgotten most of my build, except, I'm running a 3.8 Taurus fan, and a GM one wire 100+ amp alternator.

The set up kicks ass. Tauri Fan blows a metric **** ton of air, with both speeds a going.

 

[FORDF250HDXLT]

if you feel that 5-10% (or more) of your engines power is required to go into engine cooling up hill under load,id strongly recommend doing nothing about it (however you should keep in mind the max gcvwr like i am.be it in towing more than hauling,the combined rating of the truck remains the same.)

if your like me and don't need that monster amount of air for anything and want to enjoy feeling 0% power loss when your fans keep your engine cooled adequately uphill under load then you may be interested in doing the electric engine fan conversion.
what i personally ran into was the oil temps caused by the turbo translating to high water temps that required more oil cooling while hill climbing.i know this because i pulled over after a climb and read 260F at the pan.banks recommends the addition of oil cooler if your oil temps climb.so though the e-fans were keeping my water temps in check,during climbs the oem n/a oil cooler wasn't enough and before long those high oil temps will then transfer to the block and into the water.since i primarily went to e-fans for the efficiency gain,i wanted the e-fans to run as less as possible.with an aux oil cooler they now do.

 

[Greg5OH]

dragging the engine down aside, im considering adding a mk98 or contour/taurus fans infront of my rad to assist the clutch fan if temps start getting out of hand. i know the fan isnt desinged to pull air, but with a different shroad maybe it could work? or just find a large cfm pusher fan.

 

[FORDF250HDXLT]

by placing more things (coolers/fans etc) in front of your radiator,you'll then reduce it's efficiency.this means you would encounter more mechanical clutch engagement time and a take a hit in fuel economy Greg.
in a perfect world we would have no fan at all.however only those basically remaining under 10k lbs or so and driving at steady speeds (no sitting in traffic/no more drive though windows.) could get away with it.even then,those people should remain on their toes.

oh cool.a quick search to see and i did document my aux oil cooler here.this was pricey.it's not for everyone;
http://www.oilburners.net/forums/showthread.php?65533-aux-oil-cooler-install

a lot of things we do,depend greatly on ownership duration and how often you use your truck and what your using it for.for many,keeping things oem is more than fine.for example look at log truck.i don't put enough miles on that truck per year to be worthwhile of efficiency gains.
for daily worker chip truck (save for jan-march) which i can put 15-20k miles on per year and can claim i "can peak" 17 us mpg with a 8k lb 4wd dually box truck and probably averages 2 times the 460's economy in the same setup while working the same way,is pretty much $ saved for me over the long run.

it should be noted it took the hottest months plus the 8k lb empty truck loaded with 1 and a quarter cord load of green wood,with my dump trailer full of green wood (another strong cord for approx 17-18k max gross rating of a dually idi truck,save for the f450) plus hills to spike up the oil temps.by tackling the issue during this time period besides july/aug the system is complete overkill now but i need it to handle every july/aug with ease.
if i had to do do it to a truck that didn't make $ id probably try and source a used oem turbo higher fin count oil cooler instead.would the difference between the n/a bundle and the turbo bundle been as big an increase as a devoted external aux? i didn't think so,and i didn't want to go used.for a bit more $ i went this route.an easy option for a money maker putting on upwards of 20k per yr on it.

 

[jaluhn83]

A front aux fan should help, though you want one without a shroud, or at least without one that covers the front of the radiator. A plain circular fan woln't block much, and will help some with flow. Probably not that much, but at least will help with AC condenser heating at idle.

I find the high oil temps interesting - I agree that this is a concern, but I haven't ever noticed mine getting that hot, and running with the higher boost turbo setup I have I'd expect to see it be an issue. I've seen a pretty consistent trend of the oil temps under load running about 20, sometimes 30* above water temps, which gives me a max of 240 or so since I try to keep water temps under about 220. That's with a stock NA oil cooler. Agree that an aux cooler may be wise if needed, although I would also factor in the potential hazard of lengthy exposed oil hoses and a cooler - if anything damages either (ie running over a large stick in the road, rock, etc - unlikely true, but worth considering) there's a potential to rapidly lose oil.

 

[dunk]

Agree that an aux cooler may be wise if needed, although I would also factor in the potential hazard of lengthy exposed oil hoses and a cooler - if anything damages either (ie running over a large stick in the road, rock, etc - unlikely true, but worth considering) there's a potential to rapidly lose oil.

This is a non-issue. I run a remote filter with some long lines across the front on my 460 truck... That has been buried to the frame in mud plenty of times, make it's own path through the woods, etc... Never had an issue with damage to filter or lines. Anything oil related is too high to be a realistic concern. I have lost brake lines though.

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[Agnem]

Great conversation and lots of good points for pro and con. My take on why heavy trucks aren't running electrics has a lot to do with the industry that supports them. Simple fact is, a lot of those guys just are not good with electrical stuff. It's hard for some of them to keep the lights working. Which is case point #2... the alternator in a heavy truck has little extra capacity to run a fan. They know for a lot of those guys, it's Christmas 24X7X365. They would get made if the lights dim every time the engine needs cooling. No, there are a lot of reasons that are not so obvious why certain systems are put together in certain ways. Electric fans cool and heat huge office buildings, data centers and things that produce far more heat than our engines do. The problem is, there is no manufactured kit with all the needed design requirements met for our trucks, and each persons individual one-off install is going to be different, and yield different results. I have complete faith that my twin 3.8L Taurus fans do out-suck the factory fan my 6.9 had and that it is better ducted and better designed. I'm not tooting my horn here... I didn't do anything super special. But I have the wide radiator, that most of you don't, and that rad was better all the way around for a variety of reasons as far as cooling is concerned. I also have a 6.9, which cools better in the first place.

 

[GoodB0Y]

Just thought I'd resurrect this discussion...lol...

I've been researching efans for a while... and think I've found a solution that might be better than what been discussed ..

The Taurus fan and mkviii fans seem to be the go to fans . And for good reason... there very efficient and have a large cfm...

Its been noted that the best way to control these large fans is a pwm fan controller... that got me looking into it and lead me to Brian at DC control... he makes a pwm controller that's pretty good apparently.

Anyway talking about the fans needed for my truck he suggested the Ford contour fan assembly's. The assembly is two fans with a draw of 35 amps and a whopping 3500cfm... sounds great... but you need 2 assembly's to fit the idi rad... that's a draw of potentially 70 amps! But 7000cfm!

So I bought a pair of them off Ebay for a couple hundred bucks and his controller... they fit great and against my 4 core champion rad they are about 1/4 to 3/4' wider than the core but fit just fine.

I have to come clean and say this is for a ctd swap but I'm a true idi guy and wanted to share


Honestly I won't have much to say about whether it'll work for a while as I'm a way from starting my truck up...

But thought I'd add another possibility for efans if you can find the juice to run them

Thoughts?

Opinions?

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[79jasper]

Go to Google and search for kbmkviii.
He has some recent post on the army. He has some fans from ff dynamics. Supposed to pull 9k.

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[Torinojts]

I had put an IDI into a 1975 crew cab. Th done part i did not research enough was the cooling system. Someone had informed n=me they did the same build and used a heavy duty radiator for a 75 ford that had a 460 engine. This gentleman claims it cooled just fine. Not in my case. Took for a first road test the other day and the temp slowly climbed to 190, and you could tell when the t-stat opened. About a mile or two with a heavy foot i soon seen 234* on the temp. So i turned around and slowly came back home. Now i am looking at installing a 1994 f250 radiator. Problem is with the new radiator i have about 1/2 inch clearance between fan and radiator. Do i go electric, checked out the FF Dynamics electric fans and they sound promising (pretty expensive though). Or get rid of my CAC that i installed to make room for the bigger radiator. I don’t plan on ever pulling heavy maybe 4,500 lbs at the most. Thoughts on electric, see a lot of negative on them.

 

[franklin2]

If you get electric fans large enough to keep it cool, it's mandatory that you upgrade the alternator also to handle the load. Then you have relays and controllers to control the fans along with hooking the A/C system into it also. It's hard to beat that large mechanical fan they originally come with. I think mine measured 23 inches in diameter.

 

[Macrobb]

Basically, if all you need is enough cooling to keep the AC cool and give you a little flow when at idle in traffic, you can totally use an E-fan. If you actually need the cooling of the original fan(long slow pulls up hill in summer towing)... you need the original mechanical fan, and you need it to lock up.