Brown Truck Under the Knife Project - Engine

[6 Nebraska IDIs]

Yea I guess I should have made that apparent and I didn't. I will be doing a leakdown test on that cylinder to confirm that it is a valve.
I know one thing that's bugging me is that there is literally no air movement at all from that cylinder. Nothing. I put my hand over that GP hole and there was nothing. You would think if it were a valve that there would still be a sign of some sort of air movement out the GP hole. That's got me worrying that it could be a rod broken down at the crank. I'm not sure why that would happen but you know its my luck so it's possible. But every rod I've ever seen break will break up at the piston, not down at the crank. And if it had broken up at the piston I'd have a ventelated block right now and definitely allot more noise.

To answer the question about the injector, no, the one that had popped the return cap off was #5. #8 was the one that didn't have any affect on the run quality and also had a wet GP. The GP was not damaged at all. I'm really at a loss right now as to why this happened and to be honest will probable never know why.

I'm gonna do the leakdown test this week end and hopefully will know more from it. After that's done I'll put the fuel system back together and drive it into the pasture behind the tree line until next spring.

 

[Agnem]

Sean,
You need to step back, take a deep breath, keep that temper in check, and do the logical thing. The unfortunate reality is that something has gone wrong, and regardless of who's fault it is at this point, it has to be dealt with. It's not going to cost you any money to get to the bottom of the cause. Just time. So take an hour here and there, and do the air presure test, and go from there. If you have those rocker arms off, it's not going to be a big deal to presurize that cylinder and see where the air is going. If your lucky, yea... it's going to come out up top somewhere. So then you will have to pull the head and see what happened. In all likelyhood, it may be a metalurgical problem. Something that may be nobody's fault. You'll have to admit, that you took some chances and made them willingly. Like running a Moose Pump without a working pyro... Like finding out where the govenor is set... these are all things that I personally would NOT have done until I had many hours on the engine. But that's just me. I obviously don't trust my work as much as you do. I'm a big believer in letting things settle in, and going easy. Always under the assumption that something isn't tightened right, or maybe isn't on right. Tuning my ear to the sounds that I hear, and listening and feeling for warning signs. If you poke a sleeping tiger with a stick, you can't blame him when he bites you. Now if your looking to make someone else accountable, they have the right to be given the facts immediately. If you wait until next spring, or next week even, you've made the choice of taking full responsibility yourself.

 

[6 Nebraska IDIs]

Mel, my philosophy on breaking in a new engine came from a old racer that I respect dearly. I have built three engines with him and he always told me that there is no reason to baby a new motor. Run it carefully the first 30 minutes or so of its life and after that give it hell. It makes no difference how you run it if it's going to come apart, it'll come apart at 7000rpm just the same it would come apart at 2000rpm. If it's gonna happen it's gonna happen either way. One of those motors I built with this person was a small block ford with over 700hp that turned 9000rpm down the quarter mile with less than an hour on it. He is still running that motor to this day and its almost 7 years old now.
I don't know if you'd say I trust my work more than you do, you've been doing this stuff a heck of a lot longer than I have. I'm probably just stupid.
I gotta say though I didn't mess with any of the IP settings from the time I didn't have a pyro to the time I got it working (I still have not) and I never got it over 950*, I was seriously hoping to break the 1000* mark to help set the rings in but I couldn't get it to do it. And the 2800rpm the governor is set at is nothing for these motors IMO. I like it set there because it does keep it down in the "most definitely safe" side of the RPM range.

Lastly, I was not trying to point fingers, I was trying to ask a theoretical question. I have to admit I've never had a problem with an engine like this before and I wanted to know from the older people here, people who have had many years more experience with life in general, if it comes down to a problem with the heads, since they were professionally machined, if it is the norm for the machine shop to have some responsibility for engine damage IF it is a defective part that they manipulated during their machining process. That is what i was asking and I think SLE understood that and answered my question very straightforwardly and explained how the process would work if we determine the problem is associated with a machined part.

 

[sle2115]

I'm not sure I would take a winter off, although in reading what you said, I guess I agreed to that. I guess I was saying that sometimes frustration clouds your (and I admitted mine in these instances) vision. Do like you said and was suggested, do a leakdown test. What I also don't think some read or understood is that you have spent all you can spend at this point. Been there done that and personally, I'd rather have to buy a new casting in the spring than leave the engine sit open all winter! That is the angle I was coming from as well, and think you were saying that without actually saying that. The main thing here is that you have to approach it with an open mind, and not a BFH mentality, and believe me, I've been there done that too! It's disheartening to spend money that you don't actually have or was for something else (I've read through this post many times as well as others where you clearly stated that) and think you've done everything right and expect to have a running vehicle, only to have something else go wrong. Of all the people on here, I've probably been the hardest on you, I guess it goes with the fact that I can tell you have a good head on your shoulders, you understand what is going on, but have a similar temperment to me when I was your age...I've grown out of it, and like to think it's more of a passionate response than an angry one. You want to do things right and have them work when they are done, in my mind, nothing wrong with that! I was given the task every year to build three Brodix engines that made well over 750 HP. My boss was kind enough to let me work on them and nothing else in the shop. They were brought in as complete engines and sent out the same way. I went to the track and watched them have the hell ran out of them and survive, and to me, that's satisfaction.

I somewhat agree with the timing of breaking things in, but even after the first 30 minutes, I wouldn't be real willing to run it all out, but it would see some working moments along the way. Things seat better when they are run at varying RPM's, etc. Lugging is not the best way to do it, and that came from guys that built things way longer than I did as well. The Brodix engines were bolted in 1200 pound sprint cars and had the hell ran out of them right out of the box, usually a qualifying run where the driver rarely lifted.

Anyway, I think I do have a pretty good understanding of what you are going through. Like I said, I've never even spoken to you, but think you and the 20 year old me have very similar tendancies (and tempers!). lol

 

[6 Nebraska IDIs]

Lol yea. I think you and me are allot alike. And you definitely hit the nail on the head in understanding my mentality of building an engine, being meticulous with every detail and not trying to skimp on cheaper parts knowing that you get what you pay for, all in the hopes and expectations of it working when its done.
I've always had a temper, but in my teen years I did a good job of keeping it under control. In the last couple years I have ran into situations where I needed my anger to pull me through them and in doing so I have lost some of my control over it. This is also why I don't go out and get **** faced drunk either, my dad was a mean and stupid drunk when he came back from Vietnam and my brother and I are no different. Our dad stopped drinking because of it and my brother and I only got drunk once because we are the same as our dad.

I may have just received some very good news though. I'm not going to count on it happening but my boss just purchased an acreage today with two shop buildings on the property, one is a 60x80 heated shop. I was talking to him about my truck and he mentioned in passing that when he gets everything finalized for the house I could work on my truck in that shop since I've been so good at saving him money on all of our equipment repairs this year. That's gonna be really nice. If that does happen then maybe I'll actually pull the head off of it soon.
However if I do not get that opportunity to use the shop, then yes I was not wanting to mess with it because I don't want the engine sitting open all winter long.
I'll be doing the leak down test this weekend.
Thank you to everyone for all your support and helping hands throughout this entire project. It seems like I've had to lean on just about everyone here atleast once throughout this ordeal, but Calvin and Gary have been more than willing to let me rant to them about my problems every time something arose and I appreciate all of it very much.

 

[6 Nebraska IDIs]

And I didn't want to make anyone think I was beating the snot out of this engine constantly during the three days it ran. I got on it good maybe 3 times during those 3 days and I only hit the governor once, the first time I drove it because I am so used to shifting so much higher with our other trucks.
But I wanted to explain the philosophy I have been taught for new engines and where it came from. I didn't mean to have it come across like I was rodding it around everywhere I went.

 

[dyoung14]

2800 is such a low setting that i wouldnt call it hitting the governor i wouldnt think that would hurt a thing

 

[6 Nebraska IDIs]

Well I pulled the rocker arms in preparation for the leak down test and look what I found.
ENGINE CARNAGE!

You must be registered for see images attach

Uh arent both of those supposed to be straight? lol

 

[f-two-fiddy]

Are the vavle keepers all in tact?

 

[6 Nebraska IDIs]

Leak down test completed.
Result: FAILURE
Conclusion: Serious damage to #8 Exhaust Valve.
Repair: Remove cylinder head to determine extent of damage to head and other engine internals.


To answer your question yes the valve keepers are still on. I must say I have NEVER seen a pushrod bent that bad before. I can't believe I got that thing home like that. I do not believe there to be any holes in the piston. Because it is very apparent that all of the air is going out through the exhaust. I'd say thats enough of a conclusion to notify the machinist of the problem though.

 

[sle2115]

Leak down test completed.
Result: FAILURE
Conclusion: Serious damage to #8 Exhaust Valve.
Repair: Remove cylinder head to determine extent of damage to head and other engine internals.


To answer your question yes the valve keepers are still on. I must say I have NEVER seen a pushrod bent that bad before. I can't believe I got that thing home like that. I do not believe there to be any holes in the piston. Because it is very apparent that all of the air is going out through the exhaust. I'd say thats enough of a conclusion to notify the machinist of the problem though.

I'd say notify, but they are probably going to insist on it being torn down to conclude why? I'm thinking you may want to get some clay in there...I know, take the head off, put it back on, and measure the thickness. If all was done right, that shouldn't have happened. Possibly a valve stem height to high, etc. You re-used your pushrods, correct? No chance one of the wrong length got in a box of new ones?

 

[65sixbanger]

I have seen that happen before. And I a not saying you did this, but when someone tightens the rockers too much.

The first time I started my truck after the rebuild I let idle for over an hour, And then just drobe it like I normally would. With the pistons and rings these days, I dont think you have to pay so close attention in breaking the motor in. I know I have heard people say run the **** out of it when its brand new but I dont know that it applies anymore. They always said wrap it out in a gear, then let off and let the motor slow you down so that it throws oil around.

 

[sle2115]

They always said wrap it out in a gear, then let off and let the motor slow you down so that it throws oil around.

It also puts back pressure on the rings, helps seat them. If anything, in my experience, the rings are harder than 20 years ago. Moly, etc. even take a different cylinder finish, coarser hone, etc. to help them seat, like rubbing the rings against a coarser grit sandpaper.

IIRC, you torque the rocker arms down on these motors. Not adjustable like others.

 

[91f2504x4]

Yeah on these motors, there really isn't any way to adjust the valves (outside of different pushrod lengths) you just torque down the rockers and they are there.

 

[6 Nebraska IDIs]

Yea, I reused the same old pushrods. Same lifters, same everything. Those are even the same valves because the machinist didn't find anything wrong with any of the old ones. He said the heads were actually very clean and in very good condition, the springs still had the high side of the tension in them when they were tested.

Please explain this clay stuff and why he would be asking me to put clay into my engine.

But yea these rocker arms are a torque down type, the lash is not adjustable. All of the adjustment is in the lifter.