R&D stuff

[pelky350]

I wonder how much if any my intake wheel mod is helping with power? Cause can clean up my 90cc and stage 1's pretty good compared to my 088

 

[Macrobb]

I wonder how much if any my intake wheel mod is helping with power? Cause can clean up my 90cc and stage 1's pretty good compared to my 088

Throw that sucker on a dyno! Lets see what it's doing!

 

[pelky350]

I need to soon while everything's still fresh, maybe instal intercooler first still got it sitting on the shelf for now lol

 

[typ4]

I want to point out that while it is a bit overkill, my rd2-110 makes a solid 250 at the wheels on a stock turbo setup. I haven't seen a "stock" pump(90cc) make over 215 at the wheels. Yes, it's not being used to it's full potential, but in some ways that actually works better - it's a very nice daily driver combination.

And I'm running a stock mechanical pump with it - idle at 4 psi, full throttle at 2.5 psi. So... it's still providing pressure.
And I still get some smoke at the high end(wot), so it's not my limit.

Also, the real magic of the 110 is the added fill ports edm'd into the rotor... this allows it to keep more output higher in the rev range, compared with a "stock" pump

I make 218/461 and its not fine tuned yet.
bone stock pump turned up.

 

[pelky350]

I make 218/461 and its not fine tuned yet.
bone stock pump turned up.

So it's possible that I'm making what you have and maybe a little more with more fuel? Since we have sorta similar set-Ups. I know a 90cc has to be more than stock because with my 088 I saw like 12-13 psi with sorta fresh maxed out pump and with the 90cc I jumped to almost 20psi

 

[Macrobb]

So it's possible that I'm making what you have and maybe a little more with more fuel? Since we have sorta similar set-Ups. I know a 90cc has to be more than stock because with my 088 I saw like 12-13 psi with sorta fresh maxed out pump and with the 90cc I jumped to almost 20psi

I'm still not sure quite how boost PSI relates to actual HP - a couple of years ago, I had my 88 with a Banks TE06H and the RD2-110 IP, as I got it from Justin. It didn't feel a huge amount more powerful than the stock IP it replaced, but it did some. Took it to the dyno a good 6 months later... 248HP. And I was making perhaps 15 peak, generally 10-12 psi. Not a huge amount of smoke on the dyno, though.

A few months later, I found out that the governor was slightly shorter than the stock IP it replaced, and when I lengthened it to match, it 'felt' a lot stronger. I hit 22 PSI out of that turbo, repeatedly.

Take it to the dyno... Lots more smoke... 245 HP. Nothing gained.

Then, a good 6 months later, the 88 fails and I get my 93. Put that pump on it(with a Ford Factory turbo) and... I get 12 PSI. A nice, strong 12 PSI, and it'll pull really well, but not any more PSI.
Take it to the dyno... 248 HP. Even with the low boost(and plenty of smoke, at least down lower), I'm still making that HP.


My takeaway from this is that once you start pushing these turbos past 12 PSI, you may or may not be doing anything except heating the air up... so it may or may not really affect the HP.

The only real way to know, though, is to get more rigs up on the dyno. Get charts, solid numbers etc.

Russ, I'd really be interested in a picture of your dyno chart, if you can find it - I'd like to see where the torque peak vs HP peak on your engine is.

 

[FordGuy100]

So it's possible that I'm making what you have and maybe a little more with more fuel? Since we have sorta similar set-Ups. I know a 90cc has to be more than stock because with my 088 I saw like 12-13 psi with sorta fresh maxed out pump and with the 90cc I jumped to almost 20psi

You should have 30-40 hp and 60-90 ft lbs more then that. Most stock pumps will do ~75 cc's cranked all the way up.

 

[Thewespaul]

I'm still not sure quite how boost PSI relates to actual HP - a couple of years ago, I had my 88 with a Banks TE06H and the RD2-110 IP, as I got it from Justin. It didn't feel a huge amount more powerful than the stock IP it replaced, but it did some. Took it to the dyno a good 6 months later... 248HP. And I was making perhaps 15 peak, generally 10-12 psi. Not a huge amount of smoke on the dyno, though.

A few months later, I found out that the governor was slightly shorter than the stock IP it replaced, and when I lengthened it to match, it 'felt' a lot stronger. I hit 22 PSI out of that turbo, repeatedly.

Take it to the dyno... Lots more smoke... 245 HP. Nothing gained.

Then, a good 6 months later, the 88 fails and I get my 93. Put that pump on it(with a Ford Factory turbo) and... I get 12 PSI. A nice, strong 12 PSI, and it'll pull really well, but not any more PSI.
Take it to the dyno... 248 HP. Even with the low boost(and plenty of smoke, at least down lower), I'm still making that HP.


My takeaway from this is that once you start pushing these turbos past 12 PSI, you may or may not be doing anything except heating the air up... so it may or may not really affect the HP.

The only real way to know, though, is to get more rigs up on the dyno. Get charts, solid numbers etc.

Russ, I'd really be interested in a picture of your dyno chart, if you can find it - I'd like to see where the torque peak vs HP peak on your engine is.

This may or may not make any sense but our atmospheric pressure that we live in and our trucks breath is 13-14 psi depending on our elevation. So an na motor has about that much pressure feeding it. When you boost an engine say to 14 psi of boost you are effectively doubling the amount of air that goes into the engine, so as long as you have the fuel to match the extra air you will double your power output, assuming 100% efficiency of your boosting method. As you said the factory and aftermarket turbos are really designed to only reach ~15 psi and anything more than that is just very inefficient. It's not that it is blowing hot air into the engine like a super charger, it's just that the turbo is too small to supply the volume needed and it becomes a choke point for the engine.

Hope that makes some sense

 

[pelky350]

It makes sense yes, but I have a 60-1 wheel in my turbo so it's slightly different than factory and typ4 said it's more efficient so maybe higher boost is okay with mine? I need a dyno lol

 

[FordGuy100]

Yes the compressor wheel you have can flow more then what they came with. It'll be more efficient at higher boost for sure, but I can't remember by how much.

 

[pelky350]

I defiantly sounds like it's flowing some air that's for sure though lol my truck sounds like a 6.0 cruising down the street until excess throttle is aplies then the idi sound comes through again

 

[AcIdBuRn02ZTS]

I'm still not sure quite how boost PSI relates to actual HP - a couple of years ago, I had my 88 with a Banks TE06H and the RD2-110 IP, as I got it from Justin. It didn't feel a huge amount more powerful than the stock IP it replaced, but it did some. Took it to the dyno a good 6 months later... 248HP. And I was making perhaps 15 peak, generally 10-12 psi. Not a huge amount of smoke on the dyno, though.

A few months later, I found out that the governor was slightly shorter than the stock IP it replaced, and when I lengthened it to match, it 'felt' a lot stronger. I hit 22 PSI out of that turbo, repeatedly.

Take it to the dyno... Lots more smoke... 245 HP. Nothing gained.

Then, a good 6 months later, the 88 fails and I get my 93. Put that pump on it(with a Ford Factory turbo) and... I get 12 PSI. A nice, strong 12 PSI, and it'll pull really well, but not any more PSI.
Take it to the dyno... 248 HP. Even with the low boost(and plenty of smoke, at least down lower), I'm still making that HP.


My takeaway from this is that once you start pushing these turbos past 12 PSI, you may or may not be doing anything except heating the air up... so it may or may not really affect the HP.

The only real way to know, though, is to get more rigs up on the dyno. Get charts, solid numbers etc.

Russ, I'd really be interested in a picture of your dyno chart, if you can find it - I'd like to see where the torque peak vs HP peak on your engine is.

Keep in mind.. boost is restriction... and turbochargers have efficiency ranges. The stock chargers were designed to be efficient in the 10-12psi range. Sure you can drive them harder and get more boost out of them... but efficiency drops off quickly and they become giant heat pumps. Charge cooling helps with that quite a bit.. but at some point, its moot.

With a stock pump turned up, the stock charger can be driven a bit harder and make more power.. however you're running an RD2-110... A pump that produces double the fuel output (130+cc up top, 110cc at peak torque) of a maxed out stock pump and trying to burn it all using an undersized charger.

You said while on the rollers... with more fuel and more boost, you just blacked out the dyno room and didn't make any more power. That's because the majority of your extra fuel went out the pipe unburnt. You need more air to burn that extra fuel... more boost doesn't always mean more air. As the turbo loses efficiency and air temp skyrockets, air density drops... meaning less air in the cylinders.

You need a bigger charger or one designed to be efficient at the pressure ratio you plan to run... so while at full tilt, you don't get much more then a haze out the pipe and EGTs peaking around 1250F.

 

[Macrobb]

You said while on the rollers... with more fuel and more boost, you just blacked out the dyno room and didn't make any more power. That's because the majority of your extra fuel went out the pipe unburnt. You need more air to burn that extra fuel... more boost doesn't always mean more air. As the turbo loses efficiency and air temp skyrockets, air density drops... meaning less air in the cylinders.

Yeah, I know that.
What I found more interesting was:
1. The Ford turbo wasn't able to be "overdriven" like the Banks was, yet still made the same HP.
2. Even though I'm only making 12 PSI of boost with the Ford, I'm still making 250 at the wheels.

You need a bigger charger or one designed to be efficient at the pressure ratio you plan to run... so while at full tilt, you don't get much more then a haze out the pipe and EGTs peaking around 1250F.

I have the one I'll be using - a S360 with a .63 exhaust housing. I've already tested it - it *easily* pushes 30+ PSI of boost without even trying(feels like far less of a restriction), and spools extremely well.
Now if only I can get a motor together built solidly enough to take that...

 

[AcIdBuRn02ZTS]

Not sure of the specs on the banks charger... but the ATS unit could just have a larger turbine or more efficient compressor.

It doesn't surprise me all that much that they made similar power numbers. Boost doesnt make power... fuel does. You had the same amount of fuel on each occasion. Boost basically keeps EGTs in check and allows for a more complete burn. In theory... the ford charger at 12psi was flowing close to the same amount of air as the banks was at a much higher pressure (probably due to the banks charger being overdriven and pumping a lot of heat).

Did you have the wastegate anchored shut on the ford charger? What about on the Banks? The Banks may use a smaller wastegate port too or slightly tighter turbine housing which would explain why it was easier to drive harder then the Ford turbo was.

 

[Macrobb]

Not sure of the specs on the banks charger... but the ATS unit could just have a larger turbine or more efficient compressor.

It feels like it's slightly more effecient in terms of how it spools mid-range; less 'push' needed.
Note that this is with the stock, restrictive downpipe on the ford/ats unit(Typ4 schooled me on the differences between the ford and actual ats kits).

It doesn't surprise me all that much that they made similar power numbers. Boost doesnt make power... fuel does. You had the same amount of fuel on each occasion.
Boost basically keeps EGTs in check and allows for a more complete burn. In theory...

Eh, fuel doesn't make power. /burned/ fuel makes power. You will only make as much power as the minimum of fuel or air.
I can(and have) run the same pump NA(when my boost piping came off). Back to NA power levels, that's for sure...

Also, it's more that I have extra fuel available, that's pretty clear. So, I'm limited by how much air(in lbs/min) I can cram into the cylinder.

Which ended up being similar on the two turbos.

I was trying to make the point that talking about how /your/ turbo makes 20 PSI of boost... doesn't mean that it makes any more HP than the next guy with 12 psi of boost.

the ford charger at 12psi was flowing close to the same amount of air as the banks was at a much higher pressure (probably due to the banks charger being overdriven and pumping a lot of heat).

Pretty much; though the Banks when driven with less fuel still ended up putting out the same amount of power... so they are pretty equivalent turbos overall.

Did you have the wastegate anchored shut on the ford charger? What about on the Banks? The Banks may use a smaller wastegate port too or slightly tighter turbine housing which would explain why it was easier to drive harder then the Ford turbo was.

I've disconnected both, though haven't wired the ford one shut. The banks I ended up wiring at one point after getting 22 psi, and noticed no difference before the wiring(with just the big spring holding it closed) and after.
The wastegates both have a relatively small diameter compared to the diaphragm inside the actuator.