Night Moose CARNAGE!!!!

Agnem

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Hard to imagine, but we were only 50 miles or so from disaster coming home from vacation and the 2010 IDI Weekend.

Matthias called me last Saturday morning as he was on his way to do some volunteer work and described to me what sounded like a major drivetrain malfunction. My first though was that the lucky mod came apart. I would need to get a trailer and go get the Night Moose. Upon arrival a couple hours later, I got under the truck and asked him to crank it. The truck has never had an inspection plate, so the flywheel was easy to see. All the lucky mod bolts were intact. As he spun it, it made a weird sound, almost like a dynamo or something, the flywheel turned and things "looked" normal, but he complained of a soft clutch pedal. I opened the hood and had him crank it again. This time, I heard the noise, but NOTHING WAS MOVING up front! :eek: Holy kaniption fit batman! This was the first time I thought about having a broken crank. I prayed it was the flywheel bolts, but I couldn't figure why that would be. We used new bolts, and torqued them to spec. Half a day later, we had the trans off, and this is what we saw....

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Yup. The flywheel just came off with the ZF. Sheared all 9.

Well that was a relief sort of. It would take us the rest of the afternoon and evening to get the broken pieces drilled and EZ outted. Just when the end was in sight, we lost the dang tang and spring putting the top cover back on the trans, and ended up draining it, pulling it, rolling it around on the floor and beating it sensless untill the 2 errant parts fell out. By then it was time to call it a night. We made attempt #2 to put the trans back in the next day, and got it buttoned up. Whew.....

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icanfixall

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Sooo.... Where did you get the bolts... How tight did you torque them... I think its 47 lbs... Did you use a thread locker like blue loctite. Really odd how they broke off like that. Those crank bolt holes are drilled thru the crank flange to the oil side. Sure glad nobody got hurt with that one. Didn't someone else on vacation break all these bolts... Something like around rally time a few years ago...:dunno
 

subway

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i have sean it before on other motors, its not unheard of but i would not call it common. were they original bolts or from a store? i need to get a set myself for my jeep and want some quality bolts so this does not happen.
 

BrandonMag

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I'm glad no one got hurt, Mel.

I'm not sure where you got your bolts from, but it's my understanding that bolts from the local hardware store can sometimes be prone to failure. Fastenal has good quality hardware that will hold up to pretty much whatever you can throw at them. Be prepared to pay a premium over hardware store prices, though.

I've also had good luck with McMaster-Carr.
 

Agnem

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Aw c'mon! You guys know me better than that! LOL Those were Motorcraft bolts, and I'm pretty sure they were new although to be honest, I can't quite remember as it was a couple years ago now. We swapped a C6 off that motor for the ZF that he bought from EZ, and I'm thinking that we had several spent DMF's around, but probably no crank bolts for them. New bolts come with smooge on the threads, so I would not have used any locktite on them, but I did this time! Spent $25 on a bottle of the blue locktite and smooged the threads of some used bolts we had on hand (since aquired from an unknown member, but they are identical factory bolts). We torqued them to 42 foot pounds, even though my book calls for 38. Now, since Gary mentioned a higher value, I will say that I was going by the 6.9 book, and I realize those bolts are shorter, but I would think the torque value of a bolt is based more on it's diameter than its lenght. My current theory on where we failed originally, is that I probably forgot to lube up the head. I may have torqued it dry to the specified 38 foot pounds. Good to know that it took 2 years and almost 10,000 miles to fail. cookoo I'm just thankfull that this didn't happen on I-80 in that torential downpour we drove home from the rally in. :hail Praise be to God. :hail :hail
 

Agnem

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Oh, and while I'm thinking about it, if anyone has the following, I'd appreciate it if you could spare them.... I can send paypal.

QTY--------------------------------Desc

1----------------------------------The little flat head allen head screw on the back of a DMF

1----------------------------------Genuine Ford DMF flywheel to crank bolt

6----------------------------------Genuine Ford presure plate retaining bolts

1----------------------------------Genuine Ford ZF to IDI mounting bolt (One of the 4 Long ones)

I had to give these up in the process of fixing the Night Moose, as I had everything ready to go to do the Automatic to ZF conversion on the Moosestang, and that project is now set back.

PM me if you can help. Thanks!
 

hesutton

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Weird stuff. Glad to hear is wasn't a crank failure. But that is a strange thing to see. I'd use Fastenal bolts is you didn't have new Motorcrafts. Don't want that to happen again. But, it's not like you can check those bolts during routine maintanance.

Heath
 

Michael Fowler

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Proper tightening actually stretches the bolt a bit. That tension is what keeps it from backing out.
Since we can't easily measure the bolt stretch, we measure how much force it takes to turn it, and "guess" as to the bolt stretch.

I do some Steel inspection, and bolt tightening is one of the hardest things to check. Fortunately, the industry has come up with some better bolts. One of the best has several paint spots encapsulated as bumps on the washer. As the bolt is tightened, and crushes the bumps, and releases the paint, so you get a visual indication that you have proper torque. Almost as easy is the washers that have bumps on them without paint. You tighten these until a specified feeler gauge no longer passes.
Maybe this technology will filter down to our level. It ain't cheap, but it ends all guesswork about the bolts being tight. In a massive steel frame building, I like that.
 

G. Mann

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Looking at the pic you posted I see the bolt failed in the thread area, not the body. It's my suggestion that you used bolts that are not the proper length. The body of the bolt should be long enough to carry the loaded area on the bolt. Cutting threads, or rolled threads in the case of higher grade bolts causes stress risers in the material of the bolt at the base of the thread profile, which is exactly where your bolts failed.

Use a longer bolt with a shorter thread area sized so the nut doesn't bottom out at torque and leaves 3 threads above the nut to give full clamping action at torque.
 

Todd C

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Mel:
Glad to hear it wasn't a broken crank... Been there... done that... :eek: :mad:
I think I've got used bolts from a flexplate (not sure if it was a C6 or E4OD) if you need them.
Do you have any clue why they failed??? I believe I bought new OEM bolts for mine when I put it back together, and torqued it... and probably blue loctite too (IIRC cookoo)
 

Agnem

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The bolts are the factory ones, so if you don't agree with the length, I can't comment. They are working fine in all my other trucks and appearantly everyone elses too. :dunno Flexplate bolts are yet a different length again, so thanks but they won't help me. I think you can probably figure that all the different flywheel types have their own specific bolts to go with them.
 
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