How it Works - Fuel Selector Valve (FSV) and IDI Fuel Math AKA "What fuel pump should I run?"

Farmer Rock

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If you return to one tank, then it will overflow before both of them are empty enough to be refilled. You'd be drawing from two, but the return from two tanks would be going into just one tank. If you try to use a Y to split the returned fuel back to both tanks, I think that you'd still have trouble, but maybe not quite as much as returning to just one tank. In the return line (the one from the engine back) the returned fuel is basically under no pressure. This means that it flows. Just like water, it would go to the path of least resistance. Since the rear return line would be longer, and have a slightly higher resistance due to friction, I think that the fuel would tend to return to the front tank faster than it would to the rear tank. Personally, I wouldn't try it. To me, the transfer tank/pump is easier to deal with. Once it's in, you know that it will work.
I admit the entire idea was just me throwing stuff off the wall and seeing if it sticks,so I am not opposed to a better idea.Are you referring to seperate pumps for each tank?That crossed my mind as well,but I thought with 3 E pumps,it would be just as complicated as the stock setup.I also looked into the bronco tank,but I want to use what I have if possible.I saw a guy on FTE that connected the two tanks,and that seemed like a neat idea.



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IDIBRONCO

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Are you referring to seperate pumps for each tank?

No. I was meaning leaving your FSV bypassed and then pumping fuel from your bypassed front tank into the rear tank with a separate electric pump. That way you only have one feed line to and one return line from the engine. This is the route that I'm going with my Blue Truck except that the engine will be using the front tank. The extra tank will be a Bronco rear tank which will pump to the front tank.
 

Farmer Rock

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No. I was meaning leaving your FSV bypassed and then pumping fuel from your bypassed front tank into the rear tank with a separate electric pump. That way you only have one feed line to and one return line from the engine. This is the route that I'm going with my Blue Truck except that the engine will be using the front tank. The extra tank will be a Bronco rear tank which will pump to the front tank.
Ok I see what you mean.I might do something like that on my truck since connecting the two tanks will definetly be a pain to do.



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chillman88

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If I were to try a twin tank setup without an FSV I would probably run two sumps and pull from one while returning to the top of the other, and tie the two sumps together. In theory, it should keep them filled evenly. I know there was talk of this, has anyone tried it?
 

Thewespaul

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My system is 3/8"-AN6 all the way now and single tank.
I'll be running a bypass regulator that is tied into the return system, with pressure gauges on the supply and return, and also an electric in line flow meter that is tied to an LCD screen in the truck which shows the instanteous flow rate. We will then be able to track and see real world metrics.

This disassembly, cutaways and measurements prove that if you are trying to do more than 30gph through the FSV, you may start to see odd fuel issues or symptoms. Because the distance from the FSV to the factory mechanical lift pump is at 1/4" internal supply diameter which results in 30gph, which matches the flow rate design of the factory lift pump.

@Thewespaul
Wes, have you seen funny issues pop up with trucks in this FSV scenario with your 130cc or higher at peak conditions? or most people arent pushing the trucks hard enough to know?

Also to flow 100gph under the pressure needed those pumps you are describing normally need 1/2" supply, and you'll notice most have - 8an fittings versus the Gsl392 and other pumps we are talking about being - 6AN. You can adapt them down to 3/8" but the pressure goes up and you end up in the 70-80gph range anyway.

Take the holley 12-890 as an example:
GPH
@43PSI - 76GPH
@60PSI - 70GPH
@8PSI - 100GPH

In this scenario on 3/8" line you would probably have decent psi due to the smaller diameter tubing so be at 70-80gph and then regulating down





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Yep, which is why I started pushing the single tank kits with the sump, the largest pump I could support with factory fuel system plumbing was a 150 and I had to use a 105p pushing into a gsl392 with a bypass reg to keep it from dropping pressure in the higher rpms. The factory line size as well as the fsv become a limitation but mounting a big dual filter setup before the pumps helped act as an accumulator for quick runs to bandaid the issue.

-6 is going to be fine for most setups since the transfer pump assembly outlet port inside the nose cone of the injection pump has the same circumference as the inside of a standard -6 fitting, but for monster pumps in the 400+ cc range that won’t have a transfer pump inside the ip, and will instead be fed 100-150 psi inlet you can see a benefit by going up to -10 on your feed side to run twin walbros or whatever supports the volume and psi’s.

My previous mentioned caveman formula for pump volume is just a guide to help get guys in the ballpark, it’s probably more than you’ll need for volume especially when you’re dealing with a 110 or a 90 that could squeeze by with a factory mech pump with a deleted filter head bypass and clean fuel system, but always better to have more fuel supply than you need in my mind, especially coming from the gas race car world where you start dropping fuel pressure in your alcohol drag car you start melting stuff in a quick jiffy... I like to not have to worry about fuel pressure dropping:cheers:
 

franklin2

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No. I was meaning leaving your FSV bypassed and then pumping fuel from your bypassed front tank into the rear tank with a separate electric pump. That way you only have one feed line to and one return line from the engine. This is the route that I'm going with my Blue Truck except that the engine will be using the front tank. The extra tank will be a Bronco rear tank which will pump to the front tank.
What type of transfer pump and plumbing are you going to use? I thought about doing this with a little cheap pump and using the 3/8 line that already exists. But we have this setup at work to pump down dump truck tanks and it literally takes forever to transfer the fuel. I bet it would take over 30 minutes to pump the rear tank into the front tank on these trucks using a regular supply pump and 3/8 line.
 

hacked89

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Yep, which is why I started pushing the single tank kits with the sump, the largest pump I could support with factory fuel system plumbing was a 150 and I had to use a 105p pushing into a gsl392 with a bypass reg to keep it from dropping pressure in the higher rpms. The factory line size as well as the fsv become a limitation but mounting a big dual filter setup before the pumps helped act as an accumulator for quick runs to bandaid the issue.

-6 is going to be fine for most setups since the transfer pump assembly outlet port inside the nose cone of the injection pump has the same circumference as the inside of a standard -6 fitting, but for monster pumps in the 400+ cc range that won’t have a transfer pump inside the ip, and will instead be fed 100-150 psi inlet you can see a benefit by going up to -10 on your feed side to run twin walbros or whatever supports the volume and psi’s.

My previous mentioned caveman formula for pump volume is just a guide to help get guys in the ballpark, it’s probably more than you’ll need for volume especially when you’re dealing with a 110 or a 90 that could squeeze by with a factory mech pump with a deleted filter head bypass and clean fuel system, but always better to have more fuel supply than you need in my mind, especially coming from the gas race car world where you start dropping fuel pressure in your alcohol drag car you start melting stuff in a quick jiffy... I like to not have to worry about fuel pressure dropping:cheers:
That's good info including on the transfer pump nose cone for the injection pump.
Nothing wrong with the caveman math because it's getting you to a successful end point, but from what you described we are saying the same thing and that's what leads up to the point I was making - after 70gph you can reach higher flow rates easier by moving to 1/2" or - 8AN without having to stack pumps and working to maintain a higher pressure through 3/8".

That's backed up too from your real world test at 3/8" you had to run duel pumps and you need to keep higher fuel pressure for the required flow rate, and you noticed more instability of pressure.
From the fuel math, if you want to start to get up to 100gph or higher you should move to 1/2" or - 8AN and you can move the same amount of flow at lower pressure with less pressure drop.

It's going to be interesting to see with the filters and bends in the path what the pressure will be at the regulator.
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lotzagoodstuff

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From the fuel math, if you want to start to get up to 100gph or higher you should move to 1/2" or - 8AN and you can move the same amount of flow at lower pressure with less pressure drop.

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Your plumbing sizing sounds spot on. And by the way: if you look at the Deatschwerks e-pumps, you'll see that their inline pumps come with -6 porting for 250 LPH but the jump up to -8 porting on the 350 LPH inline pumps. Seems like pretty supporting sizing to your math above.

Great write up so far, and I look forward to seeing all the pressure and flow data collection from your set up once it's up and running.
 
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IDIBRONCO

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What type of transfer pump and plumbing are you going to use? I thought about doing this with a little cheap pump and using the 3/8 line that already exists. But we have this setup at work to pump down dump truck tanks and it literally takes forever to transfer the fuel. I bet it would take over 30 minutes to pump the rear tank into the front tank on these trucks using a regular supply pump and 3/8 line.
My transfer pump is a Carter 4070. I'm going to use the factory 3/8 feed out of the rear tank since the Carter comes with nipples for 3/8" fuel line. To get the fuel into my front tank, I'm going to use a fitting on the filler neck to pump the fuel into. I ran the return line this way on my Bronco and I never experienced any issues with fuel cavitation.
I've done a lot of thinking about this set up and here's some of my reasonings. They are only for me (in my opinion) so I'm going to do this my way. You're right about the El Cheapo pumps taking forever to fill a tank. Cubey says that his won't fill as fast as he uses fuel, but his situation is unique. Most of us are getting quite a bit better fuel mileage than he is. I also don't want a cheap pump that is rated at 25-30 gallons/hour. I just don't want it to take that long to refill my front tank. You can get a real cheap pump for less than $20. At that price, I would be suspect of the quality. You can spend $20-$30 on a similarly priced and specd pump, but that still leaves the long fill time. I got my Carter for just under $60 on Amazon. It's rated at over 70 GPH. I know that these may not be the GPH that you see in real life, but in theory, I got over twice the flow for under twice the price. I doubt that there will much in the way of delivery issues since I'm going less than 10' from tank to tank. I also won't have to worry about fuel PSI while the pump's running since there won't be any "usage" on the other end of the fuel line. When I fill the front tank, the needle on the gauge is around the 1/2 mark which usually means between 10.5 and 12.5 gallons depending on where the needle is exactly (I know that it's closer to 1/3 than 1/2). With a cheap pump, it would take me roughly 24 minutes to refill my front tank after I switch on the transfer pump. With the Carter, it should take only 10-12 minutes. If it's late at night and I'm tired, even with a lighted toggle, it's possible that I may forget to keep an eye on the fuel gauge for 24 minutes. Even under those circumstances, I believe that I should be pretty safe for 10 minutes or so. I think it's much safer to fill the tank faster than it would be running the risk of going down the road while pumping 15-20 gallons of fuel out onto the highway.
 

IDIBRONCO

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Yep, which is why I started pushing the single tank kits with the sump, the largest pump I could support with factory fuel system plumbing was a 150 and I had to use a 105p pushing into a gsl392 with a bypass reg to keep it from dropping pressure in the higher rpms. The factory line size as well as the fsv become a limitation but mounting a big dual filter setup before the pumps helped act as an accumulator for quick runs to bandaid the issue.

-6 is going to be fine for most setups since the transfer pump assembly outlet port inside the nose cone of the injection pump has the same circumference as the inside of a standard -6 fitting, but for monster pumps in the 400+ cc range that won’t have a transfer pump inside the ip, and will instead be fed 100-150 psi inlet you can see a benefit by going up to -10 on your feed side to run twin walbros or whatever supports the volume and psi’s.

My previous mentioned caveman formula for pump volume is just a guide to help get guys in the ballpark, it’s probably more than you’ll need for volume especially when you’re dealing with a 110 or a 90 that could squeeze by with a factory mech pump with a deleted filter head bypass and clean fuel system, but always better to have more fuel supply than you need in my mind, especially coming from the gas race car world where you start dropping fuel pressure in your alcohol drag car you start melting stuff in a quick jiffy... I like to not have to worry about fuel pressure dropping:cheers:
I can see that we're going to have to have a detailed discussion before I go to trying to run the 7.3 that I'm going to eventually build up for the Ex Wife. I do like the idea of switching to 1/2" fuel line and only having to run one fuel pump to feed the engine.
 

Philip1

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I always wondered if it will be possible or practical to have a fuel pump for each tank (with a check valve to prevent backflow) so when you switch from one tank to the other it turns on the respective fuel pump turns on and the other turns off. Then you could use the selector valve to control the return system and fuel gauge.
 

Clb

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Once this is well vetted \proven, this would be a good stickie and replacement for the faccett thread in the tech section
 

Clb

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Yessir, drop your card at the door:cheers:









See great job 4 it...

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