Wicked Wheel vs 60 - 1

[saburai]

Can someone explain the benefits and differences of both to me? As usual, apologies for my ignorance...

 

[Thewespaul]

@typ4 would be the one to explain the 60-1 stuff but I’ll do my best.

The ww2 is a billet, aftermarket wheel. Since it is billet the fins can be machined thinner making it a lighter assembly.

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The fins are redesigned for better air flow, I’m not gonna even try to explain how, but an interesting feature with the ww2 is the use of “extended tip technology” which is actually a Borg Warner creation.

You can see on this cast wheel the fins do not stick out past the back of the wheel, but on the ww2 they protrude a few mm.

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This is simulates having a larger wheel but without any machining or housing changes.

That’s all well and good, but the issue with the ww2 is you are taking a piece off a balanced assembly and bolting on a foreign object. These engines spin these turbos very fast, and if you are going with a ww2 to get as much boost as you can with the stock turbo then you’re probably already spinning the turbo much faster than it was designed for. Long story short, I will not do a ww2 upgrade for a customer without getting the turbo balanced with the new wheel. Paid for a new turbo once, lesson learned.


The 60-1 I am no expert on, but I believe it is a machined backing plate, a larger wheel and a machined housing. The wheel flows I think 10-15 lbs air (150-200 cfm)more than the stock wheel. I think it’s a great upgrade and you get always will get a great product from Russ, but to me the restriction is in the hotside of these turbos. If Russ could develop a hotside upgrade I would buy the **** out of that

 

[saburai]

Thanks Wes! Do you think that properly balanced the Wicked Wheel has any advantage over the 60-1 as done by Russ?

 

[Thewespaul]

It’s a tossup, there’s no compressor maps for the ww2 in the t04e h3 so we have no data to compare to the 60-1 maps, and I’m not sure what the 60-1 costs but a balance plus ww2 puts you in the 400-500 range.

The correct answer is to replace the whole turbo

 

[gerlbaum]

For the 60-1 wheel, the machining is only required if you keep the same compressor housing and backing plate. You are putting a larger compressor wheel (a 60-1) into a compressor housing meant for a smaller compressor wheel - the machining is to fit it.

The alternative is to buy a 60-1 backing plate and compressor housing. They bolt on. I choose this route for no particular reason.

Here is the thread that inspired me to go the route I did.

https://www.oilburners.net/threads/60-1-upgrade.28513/

Any my set up:

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[gerlbaum]

Now, this is just what I did and I honestly don't know the real answer.

I have access to the Garrett engineers (I can explain over private message). They helped me with my kit and because the Garrett part numbering is a nightmare. I used a 088 center section I rebuilt along with the existing turbine wheel/shaft. I bolted a new 60-1 backing plate, 60-1 compressor housing, and 60-1 compressor wheel on. I did not get it balanced.

I asked the engineer specifically if I needed to have my set up balanced. He said the part I ordered was pre-balanced. It has been a year/12,000 miles and no issues.

I've heard the exact opposite as well so I don't know to be honest.

It’s a tossup, there’s no compressor maps for the ww2 in the t04e h3 so we have no data to compare to the 60-1 maps, and I’m not sure what the 60-1 costs but a balance plus ww2 puts you in the 400-500 range.

The correct answer is to replace the whole turbo

 

[Thewespaul]

That’s interesting, I know all the wheels I have bought have been neutrally balanced, like you can see on the back of this wheel

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My understanding is they should be balanced as an assembly, I think you will only see a failure on an already damaged or worn turbo. Tons of people have put wheels on without balancing the assembly without issue, but as a shop owner I can’t afford the risk

 

[genscripter]

I don't have any info on the 60-1 but I'm very pleased with the performance out of the WW2 over my original hypermax turbine. The install was quick, and boost numbers were very impressive. It spools up a lot sooner. It pushed my turbo kit passed the design pressure without even adjusting my IP.

I didn't balance the turbo. I called DieselSite and R&D IDI Performance to confirm if it was necessary. Both said it was fine as is. I've been driving with that WW2 for over 15K now and no problems. It fit on the shaft quite snuggly, and since I didn't have any axial or radial shaft play, I figured my turbo kit would be ok.

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I'm over 70K on this hypermax kit. Maybe I'm overdue for a turbo overhaul, just to make sure everything is tip top. I'm working on putting in a custom innercooler in the van, but space is an issue.

 

[Thewespaul]

Yep for many people it will work fine without balancing, just wanted to share my own experience, I wouldn’t want someone to have a turbo grenade when pulling their camper across country with their family, I think it’s better to be on the safe side than anything

 

[gerlbaum]

Yep for many people it will work fine without balancing, just wanted to share my own experience, I wouldn’t want someone to have a turbo grenade when pulling their camper across country with their family, I think it’s better to be on the safe side than anything

Hahaha yeah I can understand that! You have a rep, I just have myself to blame

 

[Macrobb]

I, too have done the WW2 mod with no balancing(or actually even opening up the hot side. Didn't get the nut as tight as it could have been, but apparently it's "self tightening" and hasn't seemed to cause a problem). So far so good. It gives me a bit better spool and perhaps 2-3 PSI more boost.

 

[The_Josh_Bear]

I, too have done the WW2 mod with no balancing(or actually even opening up the hot side. Didn't get the nut as tight as it could have been, but apparently it's "self tightening" and hasn't seemed to cause a problem). So far so good. It gives me a bit better spool and perhaps 2-3 PSI more boost.

How the heck did you break the nut loose to begin with?! If'n you didnt access the hot side...I cant wait to learn this trick!
And who says the nut is self-tightening, if I might ask? I'd think a little blue thread lock would do the trick, but maybe that ruins the balance on 100,000 rpms??

 

[tbrumm]

When I talked to Russ about rebuilding my stock turbo, I asked him about both the 60-1 mod and the Wicked Wheel. Russ told me that the 60-1 was the "better value", so I went with that. Now, my turbo needed a new cartridge anyway, and Russ knew that I was putting the turbo on a N/A motor, that I was keeping the stock IP he had rebuilt for me a year ago, and that I was installing an OEM turbo kit on my truck. So, I guess the 60:1 mod may be the "best value" for a performance upgrade for my situation. I haven't had time to get the turbo kit bolted on yet, and even when I do, I have run the truck N/A so long that even an unmodified turbo would probably make the truck feel like a rocket compared to N/A.

 

[Macrobb]

How the heck did you break the nut loose to begin with?! If'n you didnt access the hot side...I cant wait to learn this trick!

It took grabbing onto the end of the old wheel just behind the nut with a pair of vice-grips(Yes, this would damage it), and using an impact driver to get the nut off.

And who says the nut is self-tightening, if I might ask?

That's what I read somewhere before doing the job. What I do know is that the threads were really stiff/tight as it was, and while I got it as tight as I could(grabbing the new wheel with a paper towel by hand - darn thing is sharp!), I know it wasn't nearly as tight as the nut originally was.
Also, IIRC, the shaft is keyed? So all the nut has to do is keep the wheel from sliding in or out on the shaft - it's not taking rotational force.

Also, maby this was related - the first drive I took with the new wheel didn't want to boost much. After a couple miles of driving it "settled in" to what it does now.

But hey - it's still spinning, several thousand miles later. I'm happy with it.

 

[typ4]

Not self tightening, some are rh threads and some a lh. Always a little blue loctite, I would never change one without access to the hotside.
I now have a billet 60-1 wheel available.
I can machine the hotside for a bigger wheel but its a pain in the ass.