Top Mount Intercooler

[janos1]

Yup, the guys in the import scene, specifically the WRX STi group, when building their cars get rid of the TMIC and swap it to a FMIC for better flow and cooler air... Not saying it won't work but not as efficient...

FMIC is a much more efficent option than TMIC. The IC sitting up top gets heat soaked and makes getting cool air to the motor that much harder. The idea of putting it offset so it doesn't obstruct the airflow to the rad. is a good idea. Try using a "Bar and Plate" style IC rather than a typical "Tube and Fin". They are far more durable. Search the web for a company that sells bar and plate cores, or check out Ebay. If you are proficent with a TIG it wouldn't take too long to fab one up.

The usual quections the ask are.
1. Motor type and RPM.
2. Turbo output air temp.
3. Inlet air temp that your would like.
4. How many HP you plan on making.

With that the can tell you how much core material you need. That will give you a discription of the size of core material to do the job, and let you know what has to be relocated.

The ricer guys have a neat way of blowing Co2 on the IC with a solinoid valve to give it a chill.

 

[Hybrid455]

I agree that the heat is an issue and I have thought about liquid to air. Liquid to air seems to pose more places for a possible system failure. I wonder about pump durabilty and I have also read fears of coolant intrusion to the intake charge. Ford has used the system on their blown engines and this was indeed an issue. I visualize a frame built from square tubing that the cooler will mount in over the left inner fender well. I like the idea of funneling cooler air out through the fender area. What if you attached a heat shield to the tube frame in order to isolate the cooler area from the rest of the engine bay?

 

[timothyr1014]

Ducting and heat shilding are critical if you are going to topmount or you will heat soak rather quick. I am also a large fan of chemical cooling...water/****, nos, etc all do wonders to drop high boost charge temps

As far as using a water to air....there is nothing wrong with it, I just had one fail on me and cause hydrolock the motor...made me supersticiious

do the wrx guys also increase the ic size when they do the relocation and do you know what kind of charge temp drop they are seeing?

 

[EricW]

...do the wrx guys also increase the ic size when they do the relocation and do you know what kind of charge temp drop they are seeing?

Usually, they go wider and sometimes taller because the new location isn't as restrictive.

Now I know there's a world of difference between the WRX and our trucks, but here's a comparison of the two...

FMIC
http://www.automasteramr.com/images/gallery/gallery_8//gallery_8_a.jpg

TMIC
http://www.automasteramr.com/images/gallery/gallery_12//gallery_12_a.jpg



Don't know the exact number on temp drop...

 

[Hybrid455]

Usually, they go wider and sometimes taller because the new location isn't as restrictive.

Now I know there's a world of difference between the WRX and our trucks, but here's a comparison of the two...

FMIC
http://www.automasteramr.com/images/gallery/gallery_8//gallery_8_a.jpg

TMIC
http://www.automasteramr.com/images/gallery/gallery_12//gallery_12_a.jpg



Don't know the exact number on temp drop...

There are advantages to both designs. First of all I am not building a race truck and do not need to visit the extremes of such a comparison but these are a few of the reasons why I think the set-up may be an interesting alternative for the everday driver.

1. Less CAC tube with fewer bends equal less turbo lag.
2. Less sheet metal hacking to make the cooler fit in the frt. Grill assembly maintains a stock appearance.
3. Less airflow restriction across the radiator and A/C condensor and no loss of cooling system capacity or A/C performance.
4. Intercooler is not exposed to rocks, bugs and road debris.

 

[janos1]

I am also a large fan of chemical cooling...water/****, nos, etc all do wonders to drop high boost charge temps

As far as using a water to air....there is nothing wrong with it, I just had one fail on me and cause hydrolock the motor...made me supersticiious

The idea of water/**** is a very good one. less maintainance. The problem with a water/air IC is getting rid of the heat in the water. In racing apps. they use ice water in a resivoir and a pump to circulate it. Like you said your not building something extreme, just a DD. A bar and plate IC tucked away in a well thought out place with a water/**** injection at the bend before the intake would be the most durable and least maint. Having a boost switch to turn the **** inj. saves you fluids. Also keeping your charge pipe tubing diameter to a min. helps with lag.

 

[timothyr1014]

janos...now your talking my language...
I plan on starting my build around the first of the year, and the direction I am leaning so far is TMIC as I discussed earlier, temp & pressure controlled chemical cooling, and a remote mounted twin turbo setup with a divorced electronically controlled wastegate. My main goal is to be able to get to 5psi stepping of the line, and adjust boost as necessary while underway.

Using a similar setup on a previous build (gas track car) I have was able to keep my charge temps within 150 degrees of ambient (at 18~22psi)

 

[Hybrid455]

The idea of water/**** is a very good one. less maintainance. Like you said your not building something extreme, just a DD. A bar and plate IC

janos...now your talking my language...
I plan on starting my build around the first of the year, and the direction I am leaning so far is TMIC as I discussed earlier, temp & pressure controlled chemical cooling

Ok, some of this is redundant but I'm just trying to put it all together in my head. After incorporating your ideas and mine I am seeing the intercooler at this link,

http://www.cxracing.com/mm5/merchan...=CXR&Product_Code=IC0008&Category_Code=IC40CO,

Mounted horizontally in a square tube frame over the left inner fender well with inlet and outlet facing the center of the engine bay. 2.5" CAC tubes directly to the turbo and routed through an insulated heat shield/divider. The shield is attached to the intercooler's tube frame and will extend from the trucks left frame rail to the hood and from the front grill area to the firewall. Now we have a compartment that will house and isolate the intercooler from the heat of the engine bay. This compartment will have a constant flow of fresh air from the grill area while moving. Air enters through louvers in the hood and is pulled through the cooler with a high volume electric fan exiting a vent in the lower fender/inner fender area. I will be incoporating a charge air temperature sensor (thermister) to more accurately measure efficiency and temperature of the air charge leaving the cooler. One could utilize the unenhanced forced air system under normal circumstances and have the water **** injection system in reserve for an extra kick if needed. What do you guys think?

 

[timothyr1014]

The idea is solid, you mentioned lower/inner fender vent for the exit of the ic cooling air...keep in mind you need this to create a natural vaccuum so exit direction and location counts.

I know I personally will be going with both forced air and chem...with a good and effecient turbo system its pretty hard to "over cool" your charge and cooler charge contribute to lower egt's.

FWIW, I am a big believer in having a temp gauge for my charge air...ranks up there with oil pres and temp, boost and egt

 

[smokin69]

The pulling truck here at school has water spray bars on the intercooler, when we run it on the dyno it jumps it up almost 50 hp and drops the egt's a couple hundred. It's just like brake line bent back and forth across the front and capped off on one end with holes drilled every couple of inches. Kinda like a barn fan spraying water, the mist cools it down.

 

[EricW]

There are advantages to both designs. First of all I am not building a race truck and do not need to visit the extremes of such a comparison but these are a few of the reasons why I think the set-up may be an interesting alternative for the everday driver.

1. Less CAC tube with fewer bends equal less turbo lag.
2. Less sheet metal hacking to make the cooler fit in the frt. Grill assembly maintains a stock appearance.
3. Less airflow restriction across the radiator and A/C condensor and no loss of cooling system capacity or A/C performance.
4. Intercooler is not exposed to rocks, bugs and road debris.

And it also dawned on me after posting that we're talking full size pickups and not compact sports sedans...

 

[lotzagoodstuff]

I have owned lots of gasser turbos (mostly 2.3 Fords) and several supercharged cars with intercoolers, and in every case the front mounted versions did a lot better job of cooling the intake charge. Although there are some gains on resonance and overall pressure drop by shortening the plumbing, it seems that it's very difficult to reliably run more than 10-12 PSI without upgrading head bolts/gaskets/etc. I will tell you that a large displacement/high compression diesel needs lots of area to get a reasonable temp drop, and the real estate is certainly easy up front.

I like the creative thought as you will be most likely trading boost at the sacrifice of charge air temperature, which is an interesting proposition. Air to water intercoolers are pretty tricky and offer one more system to keep working properly.

Good luck, take lots of measurements of boost, charge air temp, and egt in case you "crack the code".

 

[Hybrid455]

The pulling truck here at school has water spray bars on the intercooler,

Very good idea, at the track I would do it. But if I use an electric fan I think it wouldn't like the water. I also want something that will not require a lot of maintenance such as filling up the water resevoir on a regular basis.

 

[Hybrid455]

I like the creative thought as you will be most likely trading boost at the sacrifice of charge air temperature, which is an interesting proposition.

Good luck, take lots of measurements of boost, charge air temp, and egt in case you "crack the code".

First of all thanks to all you guys for your comments!!

My truck will boost 12# now which is pushing it. If I lost 2# boost and gained air charge density that is a good thing. I have no argument that depending on the variables and system implemented that the front mount cooler could do a better job of cooling the air charge. My truck pulls adequately as is but the PYRO is a problem. So.. rather then ask myself what will provide the most tire smokin torque I am asking what would be adequate to keep the PYRO below 1200. Are you saying that you doubt the TMIC's ability to cool the charge enough to do this? Or are you approaching the question from a purely performance point of view. Some of the other questions I am asking myself have to do with the points I mentioned in post 20.

1. I live in the Southwest I m concerned about sacrificing radiator and A/C condensor performance. It gets very hot here.

2. My truck is a 4X4 and does see off rd use I don't like the idea of the intercooler hangin out in a place to greet rocks.

3. While fabrication is going to be involved in either set-up I don't like the idea of hacking the grill and radiator support to accept a P/S set up.

 

[timothyr1014]

I would be shocked if adding the IC as we are did not give you an egt drop of at least 100 degrees....In as much as front mount is more effecient in most cases I dont necessarily see it as always better.

In my road/track cars I usually either front or undermount....with boost always comes speed, and 99% of the time there is enough airflow to force the heat out. In the truck it will be a different story...mud bogging or heavy pulling you will have the boost up, temps rising, but not necessarily generating any signifigant (40 mph+) movement to wick away the heat....my basic though is if you cant get enough air to force the heat out the next best thing is to disapate it over a larger area.