ok then, BACK TO THE 1200hp IDI

[DeepRoots]

agreed Mel. But there is another aspect:
I pay myself $600+ a month for my hobby (automobiles). With this income it is very easy to build an engine that can really tear up the road.
So you may ask, why don't I spend it on my 7.3idi?

simple... for the money involved I can make a 390Fe 600hp or I can do a stock rebuild on my 7.3
Even *if* I chose to spend the $6-$7k on my 7.3idi, I will never match the speed and power I can attain with other engines... the reasons are many:
1. Source of off the shelf go-fast parts
2. Engine acceleration due to an excessively heavy rotating assembly
3. Lack of good aftermarket transmissions
4. The overall weight of the 7.3idi diesel engine
5. Rotating mass incapable of 6,000rpms (without serious block reinforcement and machine $hop work)

All of these reasons make building a 600hp 7.3 a true waste of time. If for some strange reason I insisted on building a diesel at that kind of horsepower level, I would buy a 5.9 cummins as I could 'bolt on' 600hp.
One reason for others is simple as well.... the type of person (economically speaking) that buys a $2000 truck that is 20+ years old, has already proven that they barely have the money for fuel.

At the end of the day, you have the racing horse and you have the draft horse. Expecting the draft horse to win the Kentucky derby is moronic.... can it be done? sure. Personally I prefer to race my race horse, and enjoy the workhorse for what it was meant to do, and that is to work.

drew

 

[Agnem]

I agree with you Drew. But that's been covered in other threads. Nobody throws money at an IDI because if the end result desired is HP, then there are easier and cheaper ways to get it. We will never move past this discussion because it is a chicken and egg problem. To spend the money needed on a high HP IDI, you need to do the illogical. But it would seem that we do enjoy a good 10HP gain when one can be had.

 

[tonkadoctor]

Because, let's be honest, people are only buying dodges for the Cummins ....Cummins is the only one offering an inline 6 banger for 3/4 ton and up trucks.....everything else around it is junk. The transmissions (read automatics) are JUNK, the dashes crack, the axles are JUNK...everything is built so damn cheap and bends/breaks easily. Dodge broke the mold when they wrapped a piece of gold with a big pile of doo doo. (Sorry if I'm offending anyone ) ood thing it's not hard to find the gold in there with that **** ass Cummins rattle.

Pissed off.... Nope, Ignorance is bliss. Bet yer one of the happiest people in the world

So a 2004.5 Dodge Ram 3500 with 202,000 miles (half of those miles towing) on a truck that has only had a clutch replaced at 168,000 miles and just had the original batteries, ball joints, tie rod ends and u joints replaced at 198,000 miles and no other work ever done on this truck exept oil changes and filters. Nothing at all....... my 14 bolt AAM 11.5" rear axle used by both Dodge and GM is junk, the New Venture NV5600 is junk, the paint, body, chrome and interior that is holding up better than my superduties is junk, the dash that has no cracks and doesn't rattle is junk, the cloth apolstry that has no tears is junk, ALL of my accessories like power windows, power door locks and cruise control still function properly but are junk and the Infinity 7 speaker surround sound with a 6 disc cd changer is junk, my original brakes that have lasted 202,000 miles and have lots of life left and no warped rotors are junk.

Yep, it's holding together better than my last few Fords did, but it's junk. Well, That leaves me only one thing I can say about it.

When Ford decides to build good junk like this once again I'll buy one. Until then, I'll keep my junk truck.


P.S. I just got back from a camping trip yesterday with my junk truck pulling my 9000 lb full profile fifth wheel camper at 62-65 and only half the miles on interstate. 415.5 miles on 31.491 gallons of fuel. That's 13.2 mpg, getting had to find one of those good trucks that can scratch out that kind of fuel economy driving around empty.

 

[SparkandFire]

Brand loyalty is one of those things.. Some people have it, some don't. Doesn't make you right or wrong. I was hell bent on getting myself a nice dodge cummins 4x4 for years. I settled on my first idi, the '86. Got the thing for a song and dance and loved it. Ran good, wasn't the most powerful truck on the road, but I have to say that for having over 350k miles on it, it was doing pretty well!

Truth is, I was born and bred a brand loyal guy, my dad bleeds Ford blue. I just liked the dodge, and I loved the cummins engine.

The moment of decision came for me when I was shopping around for a dodge, the ones that were well maintained and cared for were not for sale, cold hard truth. The ones that were for sale were beat hard. If you ever want develop a new respect for the low levels a human will stoop to make a buck, try talking to some young kid with a single cab dodge that pukes oil, has no synchros left in the transmission, has a brake pedal that hits the floor at the stop signs as he's convincing you that his truck is worth every bit of 12 grand, if not more, because of that magical straight six under the hood (thats been cranked up, running without a pyro for God knows how long.)

I've become quite happy with the IH/Ford IDI now because it has been completely reliable for me. I don't beat it hard, I work it but respect what it's doing for me. I was able to pay cash for it and it's my name on the title, which says alot for me. My truck gets my family and my belongings around safe, gets the work done I need it too, so thats good enough for me!

Sorry about the rant.

 

[93turbo_animal]

agreed Mel. But there is another aspect:
I pay myself $600+ a month for my hobby (automobiles). With this income it is very easy to build an engine that can really tear up the road.
So you may ask, why don't I spend it on my 7.3idi?

simple... for the money involved I can make a 390Fe 600hp or I can do a stock rebuild on my 7.3
Even *if* I chose to spend the $6-$7k on my 7.3idi, I will never match the speed and power I can attain with other engines... the reasons are many:
1. Source of off the shelf go-fast parts
2. Engine acceleration due to an excessively heavy rotating assembly
3. Lack of good aftermarket transmissions
4. The overall weight of the 7.3idi diesel engine
5. Rotating mass incapable of 6,000rpms (without serious block reinforcement and machine $hop work)

All of these reasons make building a 600hp 7.3 a true waste of time. If for some strange reason I insisted on building a diesel at that kind of horsepower level, I would buy a 5.9 cummins as I could 'bolt on' 600hp.
One reason for others is simple as well.... the type of person (economically speaking) that buys a $2000 truck that is 20+ years old, has already proven that they barely have the money for fuel.

At the end of the day, you have the racing horse and you have the draft horse. Expecting the draft horse to win the Kentucky derby is moronic.... can it be done? sure. Personally I prefer to race my race horse, and enjoy the workhorse for what it was meant to do, and that is to work.

drew

Because some don't want to follow the masses. Some don't want to take the easy way out. Some only have ,want, or know the IDI and some can only justify one horse and want it to do it all as best as it can and some want 600hp 20mpg and tow 20k pounds across the country. Some would like to take thier $2000 truck out and spank some rich boys $50k truck I know the thread is about the 1200 hp idi but I;m not sure where you got the 600 number I think most here would be happy to have 300 hp or close to what new trucks have with out the payments and headaches. People use to think the world was flat and sailing out to see was moronic and a waste of time but aint you glad some did not think the same way so who are you to say what is moronic and a waste of time.

I know for me money and reliability was the big factors for me I just couldn't be expeirementing on our truck so for me the choice that made sense was to just buy the next reliable simplelest truck I could find that made the power I wanted cheaply.

I think the biggest problem is everyone is worried about pumps and injectors but no one is looking at intakes turbos and exhaust and instead relying on turbos designed for a factory fuel system and many years ago I think if I was messing with these I would ditch the intake and try and adapt or build from scratch some intakes like the psd a better turbo and some better up pipes and then if you can crank the fuel all the way up and have no smoke then start looking at pump and inj upgrades

 

[towcat]

Pissed off.... Nope, Ignorance is bliss. Bet yer one of the happiest people in the world

So a 2004.5 Dodge Ram 3500 with 202,000 miles (half of those miles towing) on a truck that has only had a clutch replaced at 168,000 miles and just had the original batteries, ball joints, tie rod ends and u joints replaced at 198,000 miles and no other work ever done on this truck exept oil changes and filters. Nothing at all....... my 14 bolt AAM 11.5" rear axle used by both Dodge and GM is junk, the New Venture NV5600 is junk, the paint, body, chrome and interior that is holding up better than my superduties is junk, the dash that has no cracks and doesn't rattle is junk, the cloth apolstry that has no tears is junk, ALL of my accessories like power windows, power door locks and cruise control still function properly but are junk and the Infinity 7 speaker surround sound with a 6 disc cd changer is junk, my original brakes that have lasted 202,000 miles and have lots of life left and no warped rotors are junk.

Yep, it's holding together better than my last few Fords did, but it's junk. Well, That leaves me only one thing I can say about it.

When Ford decides to build good junk like this once again I'll buy one. Until then, I'll keep my junk truck.


P.S. I just got back from a camping trip yesterday with my junk truck pulling my 9000 lb full profile fifth wheel camper at 62-65 and only half the miles on interstate. 415.5 miles on 31.491 gallons of fuel. That's 13.2 mpg, getting had to find one of those good trucks that can scratch out that kind of fuel economy driving around empty.

tonkadoc-
let's be honest here. the best thing that happened to dodge trucks was MBZ coming in and redesigning everything in the interior. the '99 and up trucks is a night and day difference compared to the '98 and older.

 

[david85]

tonkadoc-
let's be honest here. the best thing that happened to dodge trucks was MBZ coming in and redesigning everything in the interior. the '99 and up trucks is a night and day difference compared to the '98 and older.

Not that I need to drag this any further off topic, but those are also relatively young trucks too. Only after 20+ years can you really say what the build quality is like. Anything than 10 years or younger is just a pup regardless of what badge is on the grill . At least thats my take on it.

 

[tonkadoctor]

tonkadoc-
let's be honest here. the best thing that happened to dodge trucks was MBZ coming in and redesigning everything in the interior. the '99 and up trucks is a night and day difference compared to the '98 and older.

It's just horrible driving something that's quiet and comfortable.

 

[tonkadoctor]

Not that I need to drag this any further off topic,

On a thread like this where people are trying to dig up info and specs on a one off engine that there is little info on, going a bit off topic without going too far with insults and personal attacks can actually help drag it back on topic when someone has an AH HA moment about an obscure article and digs through a stack of 20 year old magazines they collected and digs it out because it's still fresh in their minds.

It can also help the search engine rankings and bring some new blood into the fold that knows something about it.

The basic principle is the same for making big power with any engine be it a 5 hp briggs, a 7.3 idi or a 32 liter CAT tugboat engine.

What many of us are wanting to see is what parts and specs they used to cram that much fuel and air into it to make those numbers.

 

[DeepRoots]

bring some new blood into the fold that knows something about it.

man, that'd be a nice change.

 

[david85]

Getting back to the original topic, I don't think anyone here wants or needs 1200 Hp. The idea is just to see what's possible and bounce some ideas on how to get there. I put crazy tall gearing in my truck to see if it could be done. I built an electric car that drives over 100 miles per charge to see if it could be done. I probably wouldn't bother with a 1200 Hp IDI, but would still like to see it done and I have no doubt that many lessons learned from such a project could be borrowed over to a streed IDI. As it is, I really don't need more than 200 Hp, and wouldn't want more than 400. But somewhere in between might be the ticket...(for me at least). Yes, its easier to do with a cummins, duramax or powerstroke, but where's the fun in that?

From what's been said so far, there doesn't seem to be a significant structural flaw in these engines that prevent reliable power from being supported up to the 400 Hp range. Anyone disagree?

 

[mabc926]

From what's been said so far, there doesn't seem to be a significant structural flaw in these engines that prevent reliable power from being supported up to the 400 Hp range. Anyone disagree?

On a 6.9? No I don't think there is. On a 7.3? Yes I think cavitation would set in fast. A 7.3 sleeved down to a 6.9 would be the best, that's what the 1200HP IDI was.

But then again, there is noway of knowing if a 400HP IDI would be reliable and last, because no one has a 400HP IDI, and I don't think 400HP is a crazy number to ask for, I think it could be had for a reasonable price, probably not lower than an engine swap, but it would give bragging rights.

This is where it would have been nice to know the TRUTH about the "300HP IDI" made by a former member here........

 

[The Warden]

From what's been said so far, there doesn't seem to be a significant structural flaw in these engines that prevent reliable power from being supported up to the 400 Hp range. Anyone disagree?

Didn't Ken's low-compression IDI have a catastrophic bottom-end failure early on because it was being stressed far beyond what it was meant to handle?

If I'm remembering that correctly, it seems to me that that's something that would need to be addressed. I would also be concerned about the valve train (floating valves, valve keepers letting go, etc) ...I guess the real question is, with 1/2" studs, how much air can a cylinder hold before something gives, and what'll give first? Based on what I understand about the stock engine and my memories about Ken's experiment, it seems to me the head bolts/gasket is the first weak link (corrected by studs/lowering the compression ratio, but the latter leads to driveability problems unless someone can find a way to get the compression lowered in the precup), and the second is in the bottom end...I don't know what the next weak link is, but IMHO that's an answer that needs to be learned.

But, as I've said before, my single biggest concern is longevity...it'd be nice to see someone actually do this (and not just running it beyond its abilities on a short-term basis and declaring success), but when I pour money into my engine/drivetrain, it's with the hope that it'll save money in the long run, either through a longer interval before parts failure or through increased fuel economy. Some more power would be nice, but I'm CERTAINLY not looking for a fire-breather...I eventually want to put a wastegated ATS turbo on my truck, and add an intercooler, a Moose Pump, and a cam and a set of injectors from Russ, but as things stand, I don't really plan to go any further myself...just hoping some of the stuff rattling around in my mind may be useful...

 

[Dieselcrawler]

i dont know what yall are talking about. i would be happy with a 450-500 ft lb motor. who cares bout the hp.

 

[Dave7.3]

I don't know about them asking for help from Cat and IH, I could see CAT lending a hand but why would IH help, Ford gave them a big "F U" when the 6.0 started failing.

I do know it was Ford and an engineering company out of Austria (AVL) that designed the whole engine.

Oh no it was before the 6.UH OH . I was talking about the first gen 7.3L PSD, thanks others for chiming in that caught it:

You do know the design behind the 1st gen powerstrokes was a joint venture by Ford/IH and CAT? (IIRC) I dunno, those seemed to go really well for almost a decade. Blame the problem at the source if you are gonna do that, EPA regulations.

I however forgot about AVL's involvement as well, thanks for the reminder.

It can also help the search engine rankings and bring some new blood into the fold that knows something about it.

man, that'd be a nice change.

No offense to anyone here as the topic is bound to start another bloodbath, but I think we went down that road and the guy got hammered for it. I didn't care for the mind games and other BS that seemed to kick up with it either, but he was new... Anyway, that is all done and over with...moving along.