Inquiry about fuel additives

[chris142]

That is a fact that I was not aware of.

What rating should be used in chain-saws, instead of the TC-W3 ??


Thanks.

TC-W3 oil is designed to be used in a cool running engine. These engines are cooled by the water in the lake and tend to run very cool(150F or less). A thick oil will gum up at these temps so the TC-W3 oils are very thin. and they lack the anti wear addatives that could contaminate a lake. A high revving Chainsaw or dirt bike etc runs much hotter and these need a thicker oil plus they need Addatives like ZDDP, Boron and Titanium to help prevent wear.

The latest oil ratings for Chainsaws and such is ISO-L-EGD.

I prefer Torco myself as I have had great luck with it myself. But theres many good oils to choose from.

http://www.torcousa.com/torco_product/gp7.html

http://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g1987.pdf

This oil is an EGD oil. It says so on the bottle.

http://www.maximausa.com/shopping/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=15

Ck out the Echo oil.

http://www.echo-usa.com/Products/Catalogs/2012_Oil

http://www.greenhulk.net/forums/showthread.php?t=128249

http://www.exhaustgas.com/PDF/1778.pdf

 

[MIDNIGHT RIDER]

Thanks for all the information, chris142.

 

[PwrSmoke]

This is all good information but I am not convinced there is much of a problem with ULSD. If you go into research mode, most of the sources for the dire predictions also happen to be selling some sort of a cure. What I'm looking for is a detailed, independent and scientifically controlled study of the available fuels. All the studies referenced so far show wear from fuel with no lubricity additive. I don't dispute that fuels with no lubricity additive can have long term wear problems on injection pumps. The points that have never been proven to my satisfaction are the claims that:

1) The commonly available ULSD fuel is improperly or inadequately treated with lubricity additives.

2) Properly treated ULSD poses a significant danger to our pumps.


Because we use fading "old school" equipment and the new school stuff is much less sensitive to lubricity issues, nobody will be spending the money on our behalf to prove or disprove anything. But you never know. If someone has seen something current that addresses my two points, I'd be very grateful for some clues on where to find it.

 

[Kevin 007]

Yes this is a good point Pwrsmoke. We really don't know what we are buying at the pumps. But what I do know is I am seeing a lot of Stanadyne DB-2 pumps fail ever since I started paying attention. Im not trying to stray from the subject but they are probably one of the worst IP's used in passenger vehicles sold in North America. So I think they need all the help they can get in regards to lubricity!!! I run a 5-10% bio blend as much as I can, and I run 2-stoke or ATF if I don't have any bio. I always use "something". I also have a Racor 225 filter/seperator with a 2 micron filter, just to be that much easier on the IP....2 microns is better then the factory 5 microns. And I still expect my pump to fail at some point

-As for Howes, I used to use it and only it, but I don't anymore (except for gell protection during the coldest weeks) just because I have seen so many DB-2's fail with owners who ran Howes relegiously. May be just coincidence, but in my opinion; when I guy has to spend a couple bucks per tankfull to treat the already expensive fuel, the pumps better last!!!! And I have yet to see it happen with Howes.
-As for Lucas upper cylinder treatment, it didn't do very well in the scientific wear test....and it too pricey if it don't even work.

The bio blend is by far the cheapest for me and I buy it at the going price of diesel. Would be even cheaper if I made it myself. Im not cheap, but I also don't like spending a minor fortune on something that we are just burning. The truck has to make me money, not rob me blind. When it gets to the point where fuel additives end up costing more over a few years then a new pump would, whats the point really? It many cases when people have to triple dose with additive to make any difference, it would certainly add up to the $600 that a pump costs within a few years. But then there is down time replacing the pump...so its a toss up.

 

[PwrSmoke]

But what I do know is I am seeing a lot of Stanadyne DB-2 pumps fail ever since I started paying attention.

And how many do you see a year, Kevin? Two? Four? 20? A hundred? Unless you've personally done thousands and know absolutely the failures are from from ULSD......

I'm not calling you out here, OK, just making a point. ( : < )

Anything one person sees is just a drop in the bucket. This would be a difficult call to make even with some kind of controlled nationwide study.

The DB2 hasn't been a "frontline" pump since the early '90s, so they are all old. How can a person tell what caused them to fail? Was it age, neglect, dirty fuel, a crappy previous rebuild or ULSD? I'm not saying you're wrong and a guy has to do what he's called to do, but in all reality, spending a lot of money on additives is very likely to be a waste of money IMO. The 2-stroke oil is inexpensive enough that I could personally be swayed in that direction, "just in case," if I was just a little more worried. In fact, when my farm tank is filled, I usually add a gallon of the WalMart stuff. That covers my tractors. At the last fill, I added Howes because Rural King had it on sale with a rebate, plus I had a 15% off deal... it was almost free ( : < ). I'll play this game for free, of course ( : < ). I trust my fuel distributor, though, because I've been able to look the guy in the eye (not just the delivery guy but the owner) and ask about fuel treatments. I'm satisfied he's doing what he supposed to do. Whether everyone else does is another question and the likely reason for the rampant "lubricity paranoia". <)

My Ford? It gets something once in a while. I used to swear by Stanadyne PF, but that was when I was in Colorado, long before ULSD, where we had the lowest cetane fuel you could imagine. You could tell the difference. In fact, I dyno tested my old 6.2L Blazer with it and it made 9 hp more with the PF than with the 38C wee-water (we had it tested) you could buy there.

 

[icanfixall]

I'm glad I read this about the differant oil needs of chain saw engines and others. Makes great sence about lakes requiring a non polluting oil being used in the outboards.. I had heard something about that a few years back. The epa was trying to outlaw 2 stroke engines on the lakes. Glad that didn't happen..

 

[Kevin 007]

And how many do you see a year, Kevin? Two? Four? 20? A hundred? Unless you've personally done thousands and know absolutely the failures are from from ULSD......

I'm not calling you out here, OK, just making a point. ( : < )

Anything one person sees is just a drop in the bucket. This would be a difficult call to make even with some kind of controlled nationwide study.

The DB2 hasn't been a "frontline" pump since the early '90s, so they are all old. How can a person tell what caused them to fail? Was it age, neglect, dirty fuel, a crappy previous rebuild or ULSD? I'm not saying you're wrong and a guy has to do what he's called to do, but in all reality, spending a lot of money on additives is very likely to be a waste of money IMO. The 2-stroke oil is inexpensive enough that I could personally be swayed in that direction, "just in case," if I was just a little more worried. In fact, when my farm tank is filled, I usually add a gallon of the WalMart stuff. That covers my tractors. At the last fill, I added Howes because Rural King had it on sale with a rebate, plus I had a 15% off deal... it was almost free ( : < ). I'll play this game for free, of course ( : < ). I trust my fuel distributor, though, because I've been able to look the guy in the eye (not just the delivery guy but the owner) and ask about fuel treatments. I'm satisfied he's doing what he supposed to do. Whether everyone else does is another question and the likely reason for the rampant "lubricity paranoia". <)

My Ford? It gets something once in a while. I used to swear by Stanadyne PF, but that was when I was in Colorado, long before ULSD, where we had the lowest cetane fuel you could imagine. You could tell the difference. In fact, I dyno tested my old 6.2L Blazer with it and it made 9 hp more with the PF than with the 38C wee-water (we had it tested) you could buy there.

Good call pwrsmoke, no offence taken. I DO NOT know exactly what is causing the failures. But the only thing that I have seen change in the past years is the introduction of ULSD. So this leads "me" to believe that it is causing the issues...if in fact is does create a lubrication problem??? I have never determined this for myself; just going by research I have done.
And when it comes to the DB-2's. im just comparing them to all the other pumps and vehicles that I have worked with, Toyota L , H and B series, Mercedes, Nissan, VW, CAT, Cummins, Mack, isuzu, Perkins. All these pumps were/are old to... I don't often see them fail and that is usualy without running an additive. Again, this is just what I have witnessed. So it may or may not be coincedence.

 

[Kevin 007]

http://www.mrmoly.com/index.html

With the mention of Bob is the oil guy, there is a great right up about MoS2 Molybdenum Disulphide. I can't remember the entirety of what all was said but I remember being very impressed with what MoS2 can do. If it is true, then the product in the link I provided above should be a superior solution to lubrication issues. But, I don't know anything about it nor do I know anyone who has run it.

 

[MIDNIGHT RIDER]

I will add this :

At the initial forced use of ULSD, on all of the Dodge/Cummins sites that I frequented, there was an onslaught of pumps, that had previously never given trouble, begin leaking profusely from various seals.

It was like an epidemic.

I will repeat my previous statement; I have had pumps that had slow fuel leaks to quit leaking after running two-cycle oil mixed in the fuel.

This will not fix a chewed-up seal, but it sometimes will put life back into a seal that is succumbing to the un-friendly environment of ULSD.

 

[tanman_2006]

My 6.5's run quieter with the 1oz/gal of wallyworld 2stroke OR ND 30wt, it does get better mpg with powerservice added on top of that. Same 300 mile route every tuesday, no real mpg change with added lube, maybe 0.1-0.2 higher compared to PS +1-1.5.

When it comes down to it I'm not sure if the additives are worth the $.

Just an observation here, if the ford IP is trashed after 100K miles is it really worth adding lube to something that gets changed that often? That would be a new IP every 2yrs in my daily driver, ~$700 for a new pump + ~400 for injectors. Not worth lube in that case.

Now on my 6.5's I change injectors every 100K and can say that they do go bad well before that (80K on my current set and I'm ready to rip those pieces of junk out!) Problem is my IP has 279K miles on it and i see very little lack of power (runs circles around a friends truck with a new IP actually) and still get good mpg. I think stretching the miles on that pump might be worth while.

 

[johnkracing]

New to the site, recently bought a '94 sc dually 7.3 turbo now has 175000 km's now never been touched never had additive through it runs like a dream turned up pump and installed 4 in exhaust. turbo down pipe is next weekend, after turning up pulls way better and seems to use less fuel but need more time to verify that. Now if additive doesn't noticably increase pump life I don't feel it's a financialy wise thing but that's just me. Next step is turbo downpipe and more pump diddling and if thats not enough then a hoppedup pump and new injectors is in order. Dont want to effect the earths rotation with th power increase but a bit of grunt would be nice. All in all i'm very happy to have gone the mechanical injection route, since my dragster has mechanical alky injection so thats what I understand.

Awesome site for info will definately stick around

 

[racer30]

Before you go buck wild trying for more power get a pyro and install it in the manifold where it can see the EGT's of one cylinder. Don't start to think it will pull down low like a dodge this engine needs to turn up to make power. Run a psd oil filter and keep the oil level up to full at all times and don't baby it, run it hard like it was designed to do and you can get 500km's no problem. I like Hilborn Injection, simple when you think about it.

 

[johnkracing]

Not wanting to hijack thread but pyro, boost guages installed also running psd filter. Drove truck for alot of years very aware that V motors like a bit of rpm. Thanks for the input though.
John.

 

[RLDSL]

New to the site, recently bought a '94 sc dually 7.3 turbo now has 175000 km's now never been touched never had additive through it runs like a dream turned up pump and installed 4 in exhaust. turbo down pipe is next weekend, after turning up pulls way better and seems to use less fuel but need more time to verify that. Now if additive doesn't noticably increase pump life I don't feel it's a financialy wise thing but that's just me. Next step is turbo downpipe and more pump diddling and if thats not enough then a hoppedup pump and new injectors is in order. Dont want to effect the earths rotation with th power increase but a bit of grunt would be nice. All in all i'm very happy to have gone the mechanical injection route, since my dragster has mechanical alky injection so thats what I understand.

Awesome site for info will definately stick around

Not wanting to burst your bubble, but 175000km is only 108000 miles, which is just starting to get into normal pump changaover territory for OE pumps that were neglected. Better start saving up your money for a pump

 

[hce]

http://www.oilburners.net/forums/showthread.php?33429-Fuel-Additives-Which-ones-are-best