Do I NEED gauges??

[wanderer]

Go blow it. Gauges are nice, and let you know what is going on. If you asked me if I'd like to have them on the truck, I'd tell you yes. You can run the engine with jurisprudence, and still have longevity.

 

[argve]

Having worked in engineering for an auto maker I can tell you that in most cases the engineer wanted to have said item but was shot down by cost cutting. Seen it everyday - case in point the classic GM ABS noise from the 90's trucks. Seen it happen in air bag systems as well for a company that will go unnamed - flat blew up in their faces (no pun intended) luckily before the vehicles made out to the dealers... Just because it did not come with it from the factory does not mean it's not needed - see that everyday.

Mel brings up a good point with the SCA usage. I know I got bit by that one hard.

Ignorance is bliss as they say. - If unsure what ignorance really means look it up = uninformed - that's not a derogatory term or used that way... Just quoting an old saying...

To each his own I guess. Me I have the gauges and won't run without them you'd be surprised what a stock engine produces in temps - just ask Jim Williams.... He turned his up and then quickly turned it back down to stock and still has to watch the pyro. The thing to keep in mind is these IDI's can and do get hot in a hurry compared to other flavors of diesels at the same power level outputs. It's the nature of the beast.

 

[JPR]

...Why do you think the MIL on your truck just says "Check Engine" instead of telling you what's really wrong?

Actually that part can be blamed on the EPA, check this link page 10 and 11. http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/im/vehserv/orignl.pdf
If I understand it correctly, they want the average consumer to only see one check engine light so they don't know if the engine is getting ready to quit or if it is a simple emission problem. This way the consumer will rush the car into the dealer rather than just blowing off "the O2 sensor has failed" warning.

 

[L.Wilkinson]

PSD's already are equipped with a full set of gauges. It's just that they are not human readable. They are called computer sensors, and it's something the IDI doesn't want or have. Chips are things that get in between the seats and on the floor. To think that Ford didn't put such a thing in because it wasn't needed is to not understand vehicle manufactures. They constantly balance cost and risk. They were told to use SCA's by IH, and decided not to. That risk ended up in their face. Adding gauges would make the vehicle look harder to drive, and cause more F.U.D. amongst prospective buyers. Why do you think the MIL on your truck just says "Check Engine" instead of telling you what's really wrong? Cost and FUD. As far as I'm concerned, no you do not need gauges, and we don't need to tell you that you need them. Why should it matter to us if you damage your engine some day? Well, maybe cause we're actually here to talk to you. Where is the Ford engineer that decided you didn't need a pyro? You can't talk to him, he's safely hidden away never to see the results of his decision. That's OK though. You put all your faith in him. It's no skin off our backs.

This is far too pasionate to sit by quietly. Whether you race your truck, or bomb the dickens out of it or not, you just plain know more about what's happening up front under the hood as you head out each time. Over the long term, especially after a catastrophe or two you become tuned into those conditions, and better so by reason of guages and info. My perspective is more is better, and breaking down or having the family stranded by reason of an un-noticed surprise developing past the point of the "easy planned" fix while parked in the garage just isn't good enough. By cross referencing the add on temp gauges, pyro, boost, plus your familiarity with sound and feel, and you pretty well cross reference most of what's going on with our IDI's. That's in large part the beauty of this assemblage of components.
Touch wood, but my truck's never yet let me down where I didn't drive it home. Gauges? You bet.

 

[Gildo]

Definitely spoken by someone who doesn't know the IDI's well.

So, let me get this straight. These IDIs won't run without gauges, and they run worse if you install a downpipe exhaust without gauges. That makes absolutely no sense. I can't follow your lack of logic here.

You say that gauges are eye candy but you fancy yourself on having them? That eye candy isn't going to improve performance, it merely lets you gauge where your vehicle is situated. Almost a hypocritical statement if you ask me.

I have gauges because I installed more than just an exhaust and intake. Take a look at my sig, I also have Bean's 160 stage 1 injectors and a TS chip with custom programming suited for the injectors. There is no hypocracy in my statement. I did not tell him not to buy a pyro, I only stated my opinion of when to buy a pyro in the order of mods. And by the way, that's the exact order in which I installed my mods, therefore there is absolutely no hypocracy there at all. And yes, in my opinion gauges are eye candy on a stock truck, especially one that has a 3" downpipe, 4" exhaust, and an open intake.

Gildo, I must respectfully disagree with you on this point. I am of the opinion that all diesel-powered vehicles should come from the factory with a pyro. A boost gauge is optional on a stock engine (or a lightly modded PSD), but as Mel alluded to, you can get EGT's up to a dangerous level even on a stock engine.

Just my $.02...

The Warden, I can appreciate your opinion about having a pryo, and I agree, it is a good idea. I never said that it wasn't, however, it's a proven fact, that hundreds of thousands of these trucks with IDIs have traveled millions upon millions of miles without gauges. That can't be disputed, with validity anyway. If there were alot of stock IDI engines damaged because of excessive EGTs everyone and his brother would be screaming to the top of their lungs at Ford for a remedy, but the fact is that there is no problem there that requires a remedy. There has never been a recall of these engines for that reason, nor has there been a demand for a recall for that reason, plain and simple.

ok, I agree with getting gauges, but in defense of the lamb amonst wolves, don't you think if the gauges were detrimental to the truck, they would have came with them? If all he's going to do is open up the exhaust some, and he doesn't do anything more with the truck than what the factory specked out, then whats the point? if he's doing what Ford said the truck can do, then he shouldn't be hurting it...right?

Thanks Tim, that's exactly my point. Adding an exhaust, downpipe, and an intake does not warrant the cost of adding gauges, no matter what one's point of view is.

Been running a chip for about 3 years, with out any gauges. I've got over 5,000 miles with some babies, no gauges. I readily agree that I don't know what the temperatures are while driving. Simple prudence in throttle usage, and a little bit of knowledge of what is happening when you push on it will suffice. My truck weighs 10,320lbs every day. I push her hard, every day. If she blows up tomorrow, you can tell me that y'all told me so.

Oh no! You must be kidding!!!! Your engine actually runs without gauges, but with performance enhancing mods too, and it's been doing it for 3 years!!!!!! It seems that you have committed an unforgiveable sin to some that have responded to this thread.

PSD's already are equipped with a full set of gauges. It's just that they are not human readable. They are called computer sensors, and it's something the IDI doesn't want or have. Chips are things that get in between the seats and on the floor. To think that Ford didn't put such a thing in because it wasn't needed is to not understand vehicle manufactures.

Definitely spoken by someone who doesn't know the DI's well. The PSDs are already equipped with a full set of gauges? I can tell you with certainty that mine did not come equipped with a full set of gauges. Please Mr. Agnem, tell me where the stock locations are for the pyro thermalcouple and the sender for the boost gauge on my PSD.

Just because it did not come with it from the factory does not mean it's not needed - see that everyday.

That's true. Just because they are available in the aftermarket and because lots of people buy them and then try to talk everyone else into buying them doesn't mean that they are necessary either. I challenge any of you that are trying to flame me to show me with certainly must be vast amounts of stock diesel engines that are blown or otherwise damaged because there was not a pyrometer installed in the passenger compartment. If not having a pyrometer is such a detriment to the life of the engine, where are these engines? This reminds me of the current push for tort reform to reduce the number of frivolous medical malpractice lawsuits, but yet not a single insurance company has produced a single case of a frivolous medical malpractice lawsuit, not a single one.

But back to the original issue that ajd257 (Andrew) was asking about.

As of right now, my truck is bone stock, I ordered a DP for it last night and Im ordering the rest of the kit today. The DP is 3" and at the bottom of that I am going to 4". The only gauge I have on my truck now is a Tranny temp gauge, I know alot of people make it seem as though you have to run a pyro if you make any mods, but this exhaust cant do anything but lower the EGTs anyway, right?? My theory is that I have been runnin without a pyro and this can only make it better, so do I really need one?? Also plan to open up the intake shortly.Thanks a lot,
Andrew

I have not seen a single convincing, compelling argument for Andrew to take his hard earned money and spend it on a pyrometer. Yes, I agree that having one makes good sense otherwise I wouldn't have one, and I never said that a person should NOT buy a pyrometer, but how does adding adding a downpipe, exhaust, and an intake warrant Andrew buying a pyrometer?

 

[argve]

gildo,

What are the normal egt's for an stock IDI pulling a trailer? What are they with an increased diameter exhaust?

Ask Jim... he does not have a problem that I'm aware of (he has never mentioned it) until he loads his 5vr on the back - this is why I said if pulling a trailer I would recommend one.

Now if you just use the truck as a car and putt to and from work - then no it's not really needed. Heck even in my slightly bombed situation I don't pay to much attention to either gauge (boost or pyro) when I'm blasting to and from work (even when throwing down some tire smoke) but once I hitch up - I watch the pyro more than the speedo - even more so when pulling grades....

I basically boils down to "is the truck going to be worked or is it a big honda aka soccer mom vehicle" this is when in my opinion that gauges really become needed or not. But I can tell you with the IDI they heat up quick, they seem to have a tendancy to want to burn the fuel in the exhaust pipe more so than other flavors of oil burners. Don't really know why but they do this... maybe it's because of the indirect injection (pre combustion chamber presence). dunno...

So for me at this point we need to find out how is the truck going to be used? working or grocery getter?

Andrew,

Bet you didn't expect a discussion like this did ya? ... Ah don't worry about it - everyone is actually here to help - it's just opinions vary and this is actually starting to take a turn of a good discussion where typically some good information comes out... It's just that some get real passionate about it... ah such is life... But don't run off - let us know how the truck will be used.

 

[Agnem]

Definitely spoken by someone who doesn't know the DI's well. The PSDs are already equipped with a full set of gauges? I can tell you with certainty that mine did not come equipped with a full set of gauges. Please Mr. Agnem, tell me where the stock locations are for the pyro thermalcouple and the sender for the boost gauge on my PSD.

Toche' Mr. Gildo. I will freely admit, that I know very little about the PSD. However, I think I tricked you into admiting that a pyro and boost guage would be something any PSD owner would want to have. My point exactly. There are thousands of PSD's out there running without extra gauges, and Ford has built into them what they feel it needed to run itself without your help. If it overheats, I imagine the computer will know it before you do. Now when you get in there and chip it, well that just throws all of Ford's planning out the window. Of course there are lots of IDI's running around without gauges. That's not the point of the discussion. In fact I think that Andrew's question has been answered. If your not turing up your fuel, no you do not need (but wanting them is wise) extra gauges. However, I can tell you that the few gauges the truck comes with, are pretty useless and I would still advise a stock owner to at least invest in a quality oil presure and water temp guage.

 

[ajd257]

How about that, didnt realize I was gonna stir the pot quite that much, Its cool though, that way everybody lets me know EXACTLY what they think. Thanks a lot guys. As for the use of my truck, I go to college two hours from home and make that drive just about every weekend (always empty). Their are a few mountains throughout the drive but the truck doesnt seem to mind em at all However home is were the work begins for my truck, I live on a farm and we show cattle, and we show pigs,we also sell alot of feeder calves, all of which requires a trailer. I tow a 14' Aluminum bumper hitch stock trailer pretty regularly (empty wt. of 2740) over the summer months to shows. I ran it all last summer, and now that Im selling some of my showpigs (income) this spring I decided that I wanted to repipe the truck. Now, What I really wanted to know was this, Am I putting my truck in more or less danger by repiping it without a pyro. I read somewhere that allowing more air to flow may allow for some of the unburned fuel to burn and actually increase EGT's. My pump is on the stock setting, so it better not be sending to much gold (fuel) out the pipe unburned. What do ya think? Oh yeah, hope you guys are ready to answer somemore Q's, I just registered and have a ton of em, Ill try to limit em to one a day or so. Again thanks for the replies,
Andrew

 

[F350camper]

The DP should only help matters, not hurt.

 

[Agnem]

Agreed. The downpipe would decrease, not increase EGT's.

 

[BJS]

I find this thread funny you've got a bunch of PSD guys down here trying to put chips in IDI's and it just doesn't happen.

From what the original thread started with starting with the exhaust and intake isn't going to put him in any worse of a situation than he is in right now it will help in the broad range. Guages will tell him how hot he is running and all he can do then is back out of the fuel. Having never owned an IDI I'd say that if he opens up the intake & exhaust he'll keep the temps down even towing and then before he decides to turn the fuel up he can get the pyro.

Very few people run stock motors w/ the auxillary guages to even have a clue what they will do in stock form. Take heed of the guy's who have and can actually tell you what happens in stock form.


Agnem, the PSD has no sensor to indicate EGT the programming of the fueling w/ boost is such that it keeps the temps in check by default until you throw extra fuel at it & possibly high altitude. This comes from someone who was towing very heavy at relatively low altitude compltely stock w/ guages.

 

[argve]

Andrew,

Empty weight of just under 3k then add a couple of hogs... Ding ding ding...

I towed a 4k boat and trailer combo with The Enterprise before I went crazy with the fuel screw and can tell you that even with a turbo strapped up there plumbed to a free flowing exhaust you can reach thermo-nuclear-meltdown...

As I said earlier these IDI's just run warm on the EGT...

Since you're new the famed Enterprise was a 91 with a banks sidewinder strapped on top with complete free flowing exhaust. Yes later on I yanked on the fuel screw but that was after a while I actually drove around for quite a while with her toned down (actually like close to a year). When I was towing our boat she was just a little over what banks recommened barely really... She was fine on the flats but get some hills (even the ones here in Indiana) and I was playing with fire... But then when we stepped up to a 9200lb + TT it really shot the old temps up there, then I popped under the hood for max fuel screw adjustment - that started the down hill spiral for me - I was bitten by the bug...

So yes you need gauges since you're going to be towing. Especially if you want to haul at decent highway speeds...

 

[troutwest66]

Until you get the pyro just be sure you run at a higher RPM (above 2000 up to 2400) when taking a hill. That should keep things a little cooler and with your passenger mirror keep an eye on the exhaust. Blowing coal black on a climb is certain to drive up your temps. No color to a haze shouldn't be too bad. I need to put gauges on my truck (which is just like yours save the tranny) but funds don't allow just yet.

 

[Gildo]

The computer in a PSD has no means of detecting EGT, period. And secondly, no one posting in this thread was trying to put a chip in an IDI, as was mentioned in a few posts above.

Rather than ask Andrew how he intends to use his truck, I would ask him to honestly characterize the way that his truck has been used during its life up until now.

Andrew, you stated that you pull a 14' bumper hitch stock trailer that weighs 2800lbs empty. I'm going to guess that when you are hauling showcows that you don't load as many in the trailer as you would if you were hauling stock cows. Is it fair to say that whether you are hauling showcows or showpigs that the gross weight of the trailer is 6,000lbs, or there about? If I'm guessing incorrectly, I apologize, but my guess really doesn't matter anyway.

What matters is for how many years have you been pulling loads like this, or even heavier ones?

Did you have a pyrometer then? No.

Did your engine have a catostophic meltdown? No.

Does the truck still run as well now as it did then? I'm going to guess yes to this question.

Will adding a 3" downpipe, 4" exhaust, and intake make the engine operate hotter, thus require a pyrometer? Of course not. These mods will make the engine operater cooler, and possibly add to the longevity of the engine.

Would you rather spend money on a thermometer to measure the temperature in your house so that when sweat is running down your forehead and your shirt is soaked with sweat you can say, "Wow, it's hot in here, I'd better open a window."? Or would you rather spend the money on an air conditioning unit so that you don't get hot in the first place?

To me the two senarios are the same.

Good luck,
Gil

 

[towcat]

Andrew, I agree with you. Hundreds of thousands of these trucks have run millions upon millions of miles with only the factory gauges. Nearly everyone will tell you that the first mods you should make are gauges. I totally disagree with them. As you alluded to, the gauges do absolutely nothing to increase performance, increase longevity, or lower EGTs. Spend your money on something that will actually improve the way that the engine runs and increase its longevity, you can buy the eye candy later. My advice to anyone who asks has always been to do the mods in this order:

1. Downpipe and exhaust
2. Intake
3. Transmission temperature gauge for those with automatics.
4. Pryrometer (and boost gauge at this time if you want one.)
5. Chip

Good luck,
Gil

Looks like you were the one who made the "chip" suggestion .
I was watching this thread all day but I didn't have time to respond until now.
Firstly, gauges do nothing to add performance. They don't do nothing for power, mileage, or speed. the better analogy is gauges are like a first-aid kit. Not critical to have but provides peace of mind. What they do is provide the driver additional information on what's going on under the hood. But they are only good if the driver is routinely scanning the info. I'll be the first to admit I flog my truck hard. Feul is turned up, Intake and exhaust is opened up and operator has a binary foot. the only gauges that work in my trucks are the tach and the speedo/odo. I do have the cig lighter plug in LED voltmeter and that's basically about it. I was in the truck for 10 years and personally have logged 730k(it already had 150k on it when I bought it) and I can pretty much tell how happy the goings on are under the hood. the oil, water, volt and feul gauges/feelgood idiot lights have long expired and I don't miss them. I don't have pyro, or any other aftermarket gauge. Am I flirting with disaster? You Bet. But when you know your truck better than your wife, you will pick up on its issues. Just pay attention to them.
Secondly, Gildo and any other PSD jockey, this is for you. We basment dwellers enjoy vistors from upstairs. But keep in mind, very little of the tech applies to our neanderthal motors. We know who is a former IDI owner and who aren't. the moment anybody mentions the word "chip" (silica kind not the potatoe) and IDI's, the speaker's credibility drops like a rock. Please don't take offense to it, but it immeadiately tells us you don't know enough about our trucks to have "weight" behind your suggestions. But don't get us wrong, it doesn't mean we IDI'ers "hate" you, in fact guys like NJken and Genoc are well respected still even though they have went to the darkside. There are others too but these two guys have been beat up enough by us over the years due to their choice. :draw But we still do look to their words of wisdom . If you still think the basement of neanderthal nutjobs is a cool group to hang out with, have a cold one and watch how we kick each other's teeth into the weeds. Some of us live to really push threads OT.
OK....step down from soapbox......