firehawk
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I have seen many people try to make crazy ideas work. You know what they all have in common? They all spent more time and money trying to make it work than if they had done it right in the first place.
Cooling with Propane
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MIDNIGHT RIDER
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There are a bunch of guys over on the Dodge board that have been using (and mixing) propane in A/C systems for quite some time.
I have yet to do so myself, but have read quite a bit about it.
The way those guys have been doing so is to cut an old gauge-hose and clamp this onto a plain old bottle-torch torch that has had the flame-end screwed off.
From what I gather, for proper cooling, propane is charged at a much lower pressure, something like 16-PSI on the low side.
Also, from what I gather, it mixes well with either R-12 or R134a.
I am just relating what I have read; I am not claiming it is so.
There is a ton of reading on the subject if one wishes to seek it out.
As for R134a cooling capabilities, five years ago, we replaced EVERYTHING to do with the A/C in the wife's 1991.5 Dodge/Cummins, even every hose, with plain old O.E.M. replacement stuff from NAPA.
I discarded the silly vacuum valve in the heater-hose and replaced it with a manual valve.
The fan is DIRECT-DRIVE = no silly clutch to wimp out.
After five years, during mid-day heat on the 100*-plus days we have been having, with a dairy thermometer stuck in the vent, it will blow 30* American.
I would give three big hunnert-dollar bills if my truck would do likewise.
I have yet to do so myself, but have read quite a bit about it.
The way those guys have been doing so is to cut an old gauge-hose and clamp this onto a plain old bottle-torch torch that has had the flame-end screwed off.
From what I gather, for proper cooling, propane is charged at a much lower pressure, something like 16-PSI on the low side.
Also, from what I gather, it mixes well with either R-12 or R134a.
I am just relating what I have read; I am not claiming it is so.
There is a ton of reading on the subject if one wishes to seek it out.
As for R134a cooling capabilities, five years ago, we replaced EVERYTHING to do with the A/C in the wife's 1991.5 Dodge/Cummins, even every hose, with plain old O.E.M. replacement stuff from NAPA.
I discarded the silly vacuum valve in the heater-hose and replaced it with a manual valve.
The fan is DIRECT-DRIVE = no silly clutch to wimp out.
After five years, during mid-day heat on the 100*-plus days we have been having, with a dairy thermometer stuck in the vent, it will blow 30* American.
I would give three big hunnert-dollar bills if my truck would do likewise.
Optikalillushun
Registered User
Only issue i see with adding/using propane is what a few others have said, most shops wont touch a vehicle that has been mixed or ran on anything but refridgerant because it can contaminate the evac machines and those are expensive.
As for the safety, For the amount that would be used it wont matter much. There are far more dangerous things in a vehicle to worry about than that. Also as said earlier, R-12 is just as flamable as propane and how many times have ya heard of that causing an explosion? But i do beleive that propane molecules are smaller than either R-12 or R-134A and will escape in an inproperly maintaned system quicker. A properly working system on either refridgerant will cool well if everything is in correct working order. Very few reasons for A/C not workin right and one of the biggest is a system leak, since its a closed system.
Speaking of R-12 i should pick up some for my 93 if i ever need to re-do the system...
As for the safety, For the amount that would be used it wont matter much. There are far more dangerous things in a vehicle to worry about than that. Also as said earlier, R-12 is just as flamable as propane and how many times have ya heard of that causing an explosion? But i do beleive that propane molecules are smaller than either R-12 or R-134A and will escape in an inproperly maintaned system quicker. A properly working system on either refridgerant will cool well if everything is in correct working order. Very few reasons for A/C not workin right and one of the biggest is a system leak, since its a closed system.
Speaking of R-12 i should pick up some for my 93 if i ever need to re-do the system...
After five years, during mid-day heat on the 100*-plus days we have been having, with a dairy thermometer stuck in the vent, it will blow 30* American.
I would give three big hunnert-dollar bills if my truck would do likewise.
it'd be a bit of a drive , but, bring it on by, we'll get ya blowin' out snotcicles in no time
now if i could just get the friggen new ac units delivered for my house so i could hook them up. we've been without ac for over 3 weeks in this blasted heatwave waiting on parts
Nothing worse than knowing how to fix something and not being able to being held up by the friggen suppliers.Optikalillushun
Registered User
Aint that the truth, seems like an industry standard anymore...
justinray
Contributor
it'd be a bit of a drive , but, bring it on by, we'll get ya blowin' out snotcicles in no time
now if i could just get the friggen new ac units delivered for my house so i could hook them up. we've been without ac for over 3 weeks in this blasted heatwave waiting on parts
You got some kinda secret as to making an ac blow COLD?
I'm not going to argue with you until you get some real glasses... The ones you have are not letting you see the truth...
Did you know that we are the only country that has a bug up their ass about cheap propane? Did you even know that the EPA was going to allow propane until the chemical companies got involved?
Be a good little mushroom and don't open your eyes... You might get blinded by the light from the rest of the countries around the world that has used propane (and still do) as the standard refrigerant for years... By the same car makers that use R134a here in the states...
Dang it, Riot, you've got me where I want to cuss you out for that stupid comparison you made.
Technically speaking, I agree that a R12 system (such as I have) is designed for R12... Duh! Here is where you somehow miss it...
A R12 system is perfect for a R290 blend with R600a added for oil recirculation throughout the system.
Now compare the above perfect match with the first example you used, "say a rusty old air saddle tank with a hacked together valve and hardware ..."
You must be Obama's teleprompter editor, oh master of spin...
I use it and it works real good and I'm not ever, ever, EVER going to let an A/C shop get near my truck. I'm done and to Iran with the whole lot of you Propane naysayers...
Shadetreemechanic
Full Access Member
It was talked about some very early in this thread, but it seems like it needs to be pointed out again... envirosafe12-a refrigerant, which you can legally buy and use in the good ol US of A (not legal in all states for motorized vehicles) is propane with a little isobutane mixed in.
MUDKICKR
Full Access Member
my biggest question is this, if the system has good pressure, isnt leaking, compressor is working correctly, but isnt cooling, then how will a different type of refrigerant help?
had a dodge grand caravan at the shop 2 weeks ago which had frt and rear a/c. complaint was a/c didnt work. well i replaced the rear evaporator and recharged the system (rear evaporator is known problem for these) recharged the system and the frt a/c was cold as ice, but the rear was throwing out hot air. took system down and flushed lines from compressor to rear a/c box. recharged system and still blew hot air. long story short is i found a lot of crap stop leak in the system and ended up having to overcharge the system (to overpressure the system) to get it to work correctly, and after it started blowing cold air in the back then i put the correct charge in it. remember though, the frt was cold as ice, so somewhere it was a blockage only enough to make the rear not work.
guess what im saying is try to find out what is wrong with your system first, before going and trying to reinvent it.
had a dodge grand caravan at the shop 2 weeks ago which had frt and rear a/c. complaint was a/c didnt work. well i replaced the rear evaporator and recharged the system (rear evaporator is known problem for these) recharged the system and the frt a/c was cold as ice, but the rear was throwing out hot air. took system down and flushed lines from compressor to rear a/c box. recharged system and still blew hot air. long story short is i found a lot of crap stop leak in the system and ended up having to overcharge the system (to overpressure the system) to get it to work correctly, and after it started blowing cold air in the back then i put the correct charge in it. remember though, the frt was cold as ice, so somewhere it was a blockage only enough to make the rear not work.
guess what im saying is try to find out what is wrong with your system first, before going and trying to reinvent it.
MIDNIGHT RIDER
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now if i could just get the friggen new ac units delivered for my house so i could hook them up. we've been without ac for over 3 weeks in this blasted heatwave waiting on parts
Hence is why I refuse to have "central air" and use good old window units.
I have three and it would be a rare day indeed if all three quit at the same time.
If I come home and find one has given up the ghost, a quick trip to the nearest all-night Walmart and we are back in business.
EMD_DRIVER
Say what?!?!
After a little searching, I found this:
"Flammable refrigerants pose a special challenge, because air conditioning and refrigeration systems in the US have been designed to use nonflammable refrigerants. They are not designed to protect users, service technicians, and disposal personnel from the possibility of fire. Therefore, the use of flammable refrigerants in existing systems may pose a risk not found with nonflammable fluids."
"Gasoline and brake fluid are flammable, but they're allowed in cars. Why not hydrocarbon refrigerants?
Because EPA has been directed by Congress, under the SNAP program, to consider the safety aspects of alternative refrigerants for CFC-12 (as well as their environmental characteristics), it is necessary to address the safety aspects of using a flammable refrigerant in motor vehicle A/C systems originally designed for CFC-12, before that refrigerant can be approved.
There are good reasons why gasoline and other fluids may be used safely while the use of hydrocarbon refrigerants in A/C systems may not be safe. Gasoline and other flammable substances are used in systems designed specifically for flammable fluids. A gas tank is deliberately placed in the middle of the rear part of a vehicle to protect it against collisions. Air conditioner condensers, in contrast, are placed at the very front of the car to maintain good air flow. Unfortunately, this location means that condensers may be punctured during a front-end collision. Another difference is that unlike gasoline lines, air conditioners include lines that provide cooling directly to occupied areas -- in this case, passenger compartments. Flammability risk is extremely dependent on the specific system being considered; the simple presence of other flammable fluids in a car does not address the safety of using hydrocarbon refrigerants in an automobile air conditioner."
"The following 19 states ban the use of flammable refrigerants such as HC-12a® and DURACOOL 12a® in motor vehicle air conditioning, regardless of the original refrigerant: Arkansas, Arizona, Connecticut, Florida, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Maryland, Nebraska, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Wisconsin, Washington, and the District of Columbia."
The cooling benefits of refrigerant grade propane seem much better than R12 or R134a. Pressures and required amount of refrigerant needed are less also. Having been in a "Few" front-end collisions myself, I'm not really sure I would want to have propane in a pressurized system and it be right out in front.
"Flammable refrigerants pose a special challenge, because air conditioning and refrigeration systems in the US have been designed to use nonflammable refrigerants. They are not designed to protect users, service technicians, and disposal personnel from the possibility of fire. Therefore, the use of flammable refrigerants in existing systems may pose a risk not found with nonflammable fluids."
"Gasoline and brake fluid are flammable, but they're allowed in cars. Why not hydrocarbon refrigerants?
Because EPA has been directed by Congress, under the SNAP program, to consider the safety aspects of alternative refrigerants for CFC-12 (as well as their environmental characteristics), it is necessary to address the safety aspects of using a flammable refrigerant in motor vehicle A/C systems originally designed for CFC-12, before that refrigerant can be approved.
There are good reasons why gasoline and other fluids may be used safely while the use of hydrocarbon refrigerants in A/C systems may not be safe. Gasoline and other flammable substances are used in systems designed specifically for flammable fluids. A gas tank is deliberately placed in the middle of the rear part of a vehicle to protect it against collisions. Air conditioner condensers, in contrast, are placed at the very front of the car to maintain good air flow. Unfortunately, this location means that condensers may be punctured during a front-end collision. Another difference is that unlike gasoline lines, air conditioners include lines that provide cooling directly to occupied areas -- in this case, passenger compartments. Flammability risk is extremely dependent on the specific system being considered; the simple presence of other flammable fluids in a car does not address the safety of using hydrocarbon refrigerants in an automobile air conditioner."
"The following 19 states ban the use of flammable refrigerants such as HC-12a® and DURACOOL 12a® in motor vehicle air conditioning, regardless of the original refrigerant: Arkansas, Arizona, Connecticut, Florida, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Maryland, Nebraska, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Wisconsin, Washington, and the District of Columbia."
The cooling benefits of refrigerant grade propane seem much better than R12 or R134a. Pressures and required amount of refrigerant needed are less also. Having been in a "Few" front-end collisions myself, I'm not really sure I would want to have propane in a pressurized system and it be right out in front.
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I went on vacation and this blew up Thanks for all of the info, like someone has posted here, the perfectly legal R-12A is propane and butane mixed up, so there really isn't anything to stand on when talking about the dangers of propane exploding in a crash. Has anyone ever shot a propane tank before? It doesn't explode, and the only way to have a little fun is to tape a road flare to is so it makes a brief flame thrower... The small amount in the system really isn't a danger - even if there is *some how* an explosion nothing will get by the 6.9 anyway
I have not seriously spent a lot of time looking into my a/c system - I know it is holding a charge and the clutch does activate, beyond that I know nothing. The truck doesn't see a lot of use, maybe a few times a year max. Being a MN truck it is damn rusty and not worth the cost of being converted by a shop or even brought in for any reason - it is paid off and is in 100% tinker status at this point...
Thanks for those who gave input -
Thanks for all of the info, like someone has posted here, the perfectly legal R-12A is propane and butane mixed up, so there really isn't anything to stand on when talking about the dangers of propane exploding in a crash. Has anyone ever shot a propane tank before? It doesn't explode, and the only way to have a little fun is to tape a road flare to is so it makes a brief flame thrower... The small amount in the system really isn't a danger - even if there is *some how* an explosion nothing will get by the 6.9 anyway I have not seriously spent a lot of time looking into my a/c system - I know it is holding a charge and the clutch does activate, beyond that I know nothing. The truck doesn't see a lot of use, maybe a few times a year max. Being a MN truck it is damn rusty and not worth the cost of being converted by a shop or even brought in for any reason - it is paid off and is in 100% tinker status at this point...
Thanks for those who gave input -
SparkandFire
We're drinking beer
I would be much more concerned about a leak on the evaporator side, then a front end crash with the condenser blowing up. Sure, a little "pop" out on the condenser might not get past the engine, but a small leak on the evaporator (which is inside the cab of the truck) would be more of a concern to me.
As I have said before, my dad had a really hokey rig setup for putting propane in his old truck, he had to top it off three or four times a month during the summer. I know that I never died as a result of a cab fire, nor did he...
It doesn't take much propane in air to be explosive. %2.1 in air is explosive. You figure how small the air box is on your truck, where the evaporator is. It wouldn't take much propane in there to have an explosion hazard.
I don't personally know if anyone has been injured or killed from an evaporator box explosion on a car or truck, I would believe that you're far more likely to get T-boned by a soccer mom in an Escalade and thus meet an untimely end that way. But, who knows?
As I have said before, my dad had a really hokey rig setup for putting propane in his old truck, he had to top it off three or four times a month during the summer. I know that I never died as a result of a cab fire, nor did he...
It doesn't take much propane in air to be explosive. %2.1 in air is explosive. You figure how small the air box is on your truck, where the evaporator is. It wouldn't take much propane in there to have an explosion hazard.
I don't personally know if anyone has been injured or killed from an evaporator box explosion on a car or truck, I would believe that you're far more likely to get T-boned by a soccer mom in an Escalade and thus meet an untimely end that way. But, who knows?
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