Which heater core?

Fixnstuff

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Well
You are well versed in what the issue IS.
I WENT brass core, and a copper gd. Strap, with correct idi coolant.
Sacrificial anode is interesting...
Pulling an earth????
Without batt. Drain....

I think that if you have a copper radiator and a copper heater core you should not have a problem and the ground strap wouldn't be necessary.

As mentioned, the most important anti-corrosion protection we can realistically accomplish is to properly maintain the coolant and keep it in good condition.

I HATE flushing the cooling system so I am going to pick an extended life coolant that protects copper and aluminum cooling system components and change to that, possibly when I finally put this new heater core in which has to be soon. I need the defroster and some heat would would be nice.

Yeah the sacrificial anode is interesting, they are used on industrial piping in buildings and some pipelines, metal structures, etc. but I am familiar with the ones used on metal boat hulls. They become the anode and with regard to galvanic corrosion that anode will corrode before the metals on the boat or ship.

By the way, as I described in a previous post, the coating on the inside of aluminum heater cores is in fact a sacrificial anode, in the form of a metallic coating.

The FIRST problem we deal with in cooling systems is galvanic corrosion. A second and much less common problem is electrolysis caused by stray currents from a wiring problem, and I am still researching that.


I'll be putting up some links to excellent web pages discussing everything we've been taking about, most importantly corrosion in cooling systems.

In fact, if you scroll down the web page at this url you will see examples on the right of galvanic corrosion and sacrificial anodes. The bottom two sacrificial anodes are from boat hulls (salt water being the electrolyte).


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion#Preventing_galvanic_corrosion
 

Fixnstuff

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down here coolant is water. People think they don't need antifreeze so they run tap water with minerals in it! I now have an aluminum radiator. Had it 3-4 years. I actually have had to warranty 2 of them due to bad welds. Our go to coolant is HD green coolant with sca already in it.

The Aluminum radiator and heater core cancels out your concerns for galvanic corrosion, except for the steel block, heads and other steel parts which would corrode if you didn't use a good coolant.

One of the sentences that I deleted from that post was "Remember rusty water in radiators?" I saw that quite often back in the good ol' days, which for me was the muscle car era of the 1960's. I started helping my older friends work on their 'hot rods' when I was 12 yr's old in 1962. The first project was helping to completely rebuild a small block V8 Chevy engine, 265 cu. in. including boring out the cylinders with an old cylinder boring contraption my friend borrowed from his uncle.

Anyway, cars from the mid 50's to the late 60's were very well built and tough! Everything including radiators seemed to be much better built, that is mostly to say stronger, than by the 1980's for example. I can remember running straight tap water in radiators when I was on a long trip with a slow leak somewhere or when I didn't have money to buy anti-freeze. Teenage years. I figured that I really didn't need it until the cold weather came. I got away with it on those times I had to do it. I also remember that from southern California. Almost every vehicle I had held up very well though. All but one which had a bad engine when I bought it.

What brand and label of Diesel Engine Coolant are you using at your shop?

Our trucks were made before some big changes in diesel vehicles. All of the cooling system components now are Aluminum. I have to find a coolant that is good for Aluminum AND COPPER. I have a very good quality replacement copper radiator that I bought used from an 1991 F350 parts truck, probably only a few years old when I got it which is in very good to excellent condition and I want to KEEP IT that way.
The original radiator lasted 29 years.

I have a sample of coolant from my radiator right now which I'm going to put a test strip in shortly. In fact I'm going to run to the pharmacy and buy some pH test strips as soon as I post this. The coolant is about 2 years old with only about 2,000 miles on it. Depending upon the results of these tests I may decide to change out my coolant to an ELC in the next few days along with the heater core.
 

chris142

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We use trinity coolant. What material is our oil cooler made from?
 

Fixnstuff

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When I did my obs...
No matter who you buy from , it will be china alumin. Crap (you need to run an elect. Ground to it to stop electrollysis..)
UNLESS you go to brassworks and get an all brass unit.

Sit down before asking the price.

DO NOT GROUND THE HEATER CORE ! According to a Ford TSB it will make an electrolysis issue worse. A follow-up Ford Technical Service Bulletin states that specifically and this TSB was issued to correct a mistake they made in a TSB 5 years earlier that recommended grounding it as a last resort to electrolysis problems. The following is quoted from the "Mobile Air Conditioning Society (MACS)" worldwide BLOG. A MACS "Think Tank" post.

Repeat heater core failures and electrolysis
By MACS Technical Thinktank

Repeat heater core failures are often thought of as a Ford or General Motors problem, but the best information we’ve seen indicates that the problem is cyclical among all makes. We do hear more about Ford repeat failures, we suspect, because of an old Ford service bulletin that mentioned the use of extra grounds to the engine and heater core as an “if all else fails” possibility for high voltage in the coolant. However, there were no grounds on the heater cores to start with, so installing one would not qualify as an “extra.”

At any rate, the recommendation (for a ground from the heater core inlet tube to the body) seems to have been a mistake that just got into print. Five years later, a Ford bulletin on basically the same subject was blunt,
“Do Not Ground Heater Core. If the heater core is grounded, you have provided the electrolysis a path through the heater core. This would cause the heater core to become an anode or receiver, and it would promote the electrolysis, or any stray voltage, to use the coolant as the ground path.”
So that should end the debate, although technicians have long memories.

Source: https://macsworldwide.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/repeat-heater-core-failures-and-electrolysis/
 

Fordtruckfan89

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Grounding the core won't hurt anything, rock auto has the factory ford brass core, either hc-1 or hc-3. Don't run anything but distilled water, sca additive and green conventional coolant. I went through 3 cores before I learned this. Add ground straps from cab to frame, heater core to firewall and frame to core support if you suspect electrolysis. I ran into a guy on FB that went through 13 cores before he grounded it, been over 2 years with no issues. He had tried different coolant and core materials to no avail.
 

Fixnstuff

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Wow! So much good information here, glad I got the discussion going!

I am glad you started this too! I have spent many many hours and some days researching this since I last posted and I have a lot more important and interesting information to add, I'm writing it offline and hopefully I will get it all posted tonight.

Electrolysis in cooling systems is one of the most misunderstood issues that I have yet encountered. There are lots of websites that give information about it, most of them you would think are reliable but they are not! It became very clear to me that some of these sites don't fully understand electrolysis in diesel engines, sometimes get it wrong, have misleading information and may give bad advice. It's more critical in diesel engines because it CAN and DOES cause catastrophic engine failure and it can do that very quickly. A document from CAT Diesel states that electrolysis in the cooling system can destroy an engine in 24,000 miles and that report documents numerous premature engine failures and lots of other damage due to electrolysis through the engine coolant.

In one documented case reported by a diesel engine coolant testing laboratory electrolysis caused by a short in a starter in a well maintained Class 8 tractor/trailer combination caused catastrophic engine failure due to cavitation failure IN ALL 8 CYLINDERS at the end of a 6,000 mile trip from California to the East Coast!

What happens is that stray electrical current that has found a path through the coolant in the cooling system rapidly destroys NITRITE anti-cavitation additives. The engine is no longer protected against cylinder liner cavitation and rapid cavitation occurs leading to catastrophic engine failures. It seems that this also occurs with the more modern Nitrite-Free diesel engine coolants.

In one case reported in the Caterpillar document, a fleet of about 24 trucks was experiencing catastrophic engine failures every 100,000 miles until the source of the stray current was identified. That was: electric suspension air-bags in the rear suspension were leaking current which travelled through the drive train to the engine and engine coolant.

One of the BOTTOM LINES of my research is just as the 2nd Ford TSB on electrolysis and failing heater cores VERY CLEARLY STATES, IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS BOLD TYPE:



CAUTION
DO NOT GROUND HEATER CORE. IF THE
HEATER CORE IS GROUNDED, YOU HAVE
PROVIDED THE ELECTROLYSIS A PATH
THROUGH THE HEATER CORE. THIS WOULD
CAUSE THE HEATER CORE TO BECOME AN
ANODE OR RECEIVER AND IT WOULD
PROMOTE THE ELECTROLYSIS, OR ANY
STRAY VOLTAGE TO USE THE COOLANT AS
THE GROUND PATH.

I have copies of BOTH of the Ford TSBs in question which address the failing heater cores/electrolysis issues. The first TSB 01-15-6 wrongly suggested the following in paragraph number 5, in the event that other checks did not solve the problem. :
...it may be necessary to add extra grounds to the heater core and
engine.

THAT TSB 01-15-6 WAS SUPERSEDED BY THE SECOND TSB 06-21-19. That means that the first TSB 01-15-6 is to be set aside as no longer valid and has been replaced by the second, TSB 06-21-19 which 'supersedes' it. The second, TSB 06-21-19 ALSO APPLIES to all of the years and models listed in the first TSB 01-15-6. That is the proper way to interpret the second TSB. There is also a note in the second TSB which supports and clarifies this which states:

This article supersedes TSB 01-15-6 to update the
vehicle model years
and Service Procedure.

This TSB simply added a lot of models & years that were not reported in the first TSB because they didn't exist at that time. The models and years listed in the first TSB definitely ARE covered in the second TSB even though they are not specifically listed.

In fact, the makes, models and years of vehicles don't matter. Those listed by Ford were only those models and years where this issue was officially reported numerous times and confirmed as being a common problem.

THIS ISSUE applies TO ALL engines with conventional cooling systems. In diesels it's much more critical than leaking heater core issues in gas engine vehicles due to the much higher potential for catastrophic engine failure caused by rapid depletion of anti-cavitation additives in Diesel Engine Coolants, which can lead to premature and sometimes rapid catastrophic engine failures.

By the way, Gas Engines also experience cavitation and some cavitation damage to cylinders, just nowhere near as intense as in diesel engines, with a possible exception in high performance gas engines.

All conventional engine coolants, for gas or diesel have anti-cavitation additives and corrosion inhibitors, but diesel engines require formulations specifically for diesel engines.

I don't have the time and convenience right now to post any of the additional information or links that I had been working on off-line. That will have to wait for later tonight.

I have to get outside right now before dark and insert my new heater core and put the cover back on. That is all prepared and ready.

In the next two days I will be completely flushing the cooling system, adding NEW heater hoses and radiator hoses, NAPA Brand which are made by GATES. and then refilling with FINAL CHARGE GLOBAL extended life coolant. I have made a LOT of comparisons of diesel engine coolants, and especially their manufacturers over the past few years I am MOST IMPRESSED by the research and development from 'Old World Industries' who own the PEAK brand which makes FLEET CHARGE Pre-charged with SCAs and FINAL CHARGE GLOBAL Extended Life anti-freeze/coolant, NITRITE-FREE for all heavy duty engines.

They have fleet management programs where fleets of trucks are running a million miles on the same original coolant fill. To understand exactly what that means you will need to go to their website and do some searching..

This is NOT to say that FINAL CHARGE GLOBAL is the only ELC coolant that can manage that under some kind of similar maintenance programs, (I'm not sure if any one else is claiming that) or that FINAL CHARGE GLOBAL is with certainty on my part, the best diesel engine coolant. They do have some technical thing in the formulation that no other manufacturers can claim, maybe it's something patented and I can't remember what that is exactly, BUT I can only say that based on my own personal research and digging into the research, development and manufacturing of diesel engine coolants , these particular PEAK brand labels are the ones that I personally felt most confident in.

I'll be glad when this repair project is finished! I keep getting side tracked! I am also very meticulous and want to do everything as close to perfect as I can manage to do which, along with some chronic pain issues, bad weather, very low income, and spending a lot of time researching things and writing posts to forums, it often takes a long time to get repair projects finished.

Sorry this post was so long. It probably took me 100 (or more) times longer to write it than it will for you to read it, not including the time I spent researching the subject since I last posted, trying to get all of this right.
 

Fordtruckfan89

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Do what you want, gm and dodge had vehicles with FACTORY heater core ground straps. I honestly don't even think mine was electrolysis, but different coolant accidentally mixed together causing issues. I'm still tracing down a tiny but damn near impossible to find coolant leak.
 
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