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Rotella 15w40 vs Rotella 15w40 Full Synthetic

Discussion in '6.9L IH & 7.3L IDI Diesels' started by raeasler, Oct 8, 2020.

  1. stick_witch

    stick_witch Full Access Member

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    Found an interesting VOA comparison between CJ-4 (left) and CK-4 (right) Rotella 5w-40 synthetic.
    [​IMG]
    CJ4 is up around 1400ppm vs 1200ppm. My my CK4 RT4 5w40 though was testing at around 1050ppm.


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  2. stick_witch

    stick_witch Full Access Member

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    Hahaha fair enough lol. Probably best to keep the rocket science to the rocket scientists


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  3. CBRF3

    CBRF3 Full Access Member

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    molybdenum is a big one for friction reduction aka wear reduction but again is a fine line to much and you will lose ring seal LOL and get cylinder glazing / Hazing which is really bad I mention this to give you a idea of how each one plays a part and how to much of one can cause a imbalance or issue with the motors normal function.

    This is again why i try to find a oil that tests with the standards of CJ4 and CK4 not just CK4 and call it good most oils that are CK4 mention backwards compatability with CJ4 but do not actually do some of the tests that were done in the CJ4 standard so its very confusing and oil chemistry is a very complicated thing so again I look for a oil with both testing standards and then look for additive package with good soot dispersement and well a respectable group IV PAO oil content as this oil lasts much longer than the group III's before breaking down and is the true synthetic unlike group III which is just highly refined dino oil not even really synthetic at all which is delo and rotella synthetic so you know straight group III no or little to none of group IV POA.


    https://www.pca.org/news/2015-11-02/synthetic-word-relates-motor-oil to possibly help out understanding the oil groups


    HIGHLIGHTS

    Group III — Wax isomerized or hydrocracked crude oil refining process. Group III base stocks are considered synthetic because their molecular structures are altered through an intended chemical reaction. Very low wax and aromatic content. Used in the majority of synthetic motor oils.

    Group IV — Polyalphaolefin (PAO) base stocks are chemically synthesized from ethylene. Used in some synthetic motor oils.


    Unfortunately, manufacturers and marketers of synthetic motor oils can be less than forthcoming with information regarding the types of base stocks and additives used in their product formulas. As a result, the only way to determine their quality and effectiveness is through a series of American Society of Testing Materials (ASTM) tests. For example, the Noack volatility test (ASTM D5800) measures the evaporation loss at high temperature. Another favorite is the High Temperature/High Shear (HTHS) test (ASTM D5481), which measures the viscosity of motor oil under high temperature and shear conditions.





    Though they have similar performance characteristics, should you be concerned about the substitution of Group IV or V with Group III base stocks in your synthetic motor oils? Your application, maintenance schedule, and the targeted price point will determine the answer.

    Full synthetic motor oils manufactured by the major brands and sold by the leading automotive chain stores are comprised of primarily Group III base stocks. Although some may also contain small amounts of Group II base stocks, they are good-quality motor oils with American Petroleum Institute (API) approvals that you can confidently put in your crankcase knowing they meet the requirements of new-car manufacturers.

    However, by no means are Group III synthetic motor oils of the highest quality or necessarily the best product for your application. Pricing and affordability will be determining factors, as well as driving environment and intended use of your vehicle. A Group III-based full synthetic motor oil on sale at the local mega-store may be the best value if your requirements are ordinary, such as city or highway driving, the occasional autocross, and back road driving. But if vehicle use and ambient conditions will be more demanding, including high-performance driving, high heat or extreme cold, frequent short trips, longer oil change intervals, etc., a motor oil with Group IV or V base stocks may be for you.

    Generally, Group IV and V base stocks, such as polyalphaolefins, esters, or polyalkylene glycols, will have performance advantages over Group III base stocks regardless of how well refined they may be. These advantages include a lower pour point (temperature at which the oil becomes semi-solid), less volatility or lubricant evaporation due to temperature, and better shear protection (more resistant to physical breakdown). Most formulators of high-performance synthetic oil will blend a variety of Group IV and V base stocks, which can help build a type of synergy between them. They also are often blended with Group III base stocks to help control the price and aid with the solubility issues sometimes associated with certain types of Group IV and V base stocks.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  4. stick_witch

    stick_witch Full Access Member

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    Yeah, ive heard of oil companies replacing zinc with moly, but I’ve heard things saying that the moly isn’t as effective as zinc. And i mean, oil additives are pretty popular and seem to improve oil performance across the board, and i haven’t heard too many stories of rigs eating cams and throwing rods because of an oil additive.
    I guess the deeper you get into this the more questions of science you have to dig throughlol


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  5. CBRF3

    CBRF3 Full Access Member

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    for our motors its mainly cams and lifters that are effected and well other factors come into play because of them a cam can wear and you would never know it because it happens over time mine started having a weird noise out the exhaust on drivers side while towing at around 65mph ( the clearing stroke aka exhausting of remaining exhaust gasses out of cylinder were being prematurely stopped and caused a weird huff out exhaust on next intake / power stroke we have a slight intake / exhaust valve overlap by design that wasn't working correctly that caused this huff ). I thought okay time for a valve job sent heads to machine shop full iconel valves installed and new guides and viton valve guide seals ( never shave or surface these heads ) and comp cams valve springs a upgrade over stock and still had same issue pulled intake and rockers then removed lifters and looked thru the lifter / pushrod holes with a borescope only to find a worn cam on drivers side 2nd from rear on exhaust side. Then put brand new international NOS lifters and cam and well issue returned 6 months later left me scratching my head then another motor of mine ate 2 sets of lifters and was getting excessive cam wear again on exhaust lobe on cam replaced them. Then next thing I know the first one I had the issue it occured again I had been using the delo synthetic in 1 and rotella synthetic in other since CJ4 and continued after CK4 came into play ( I dont like to switch a motors blood type once it has been broken in and ran on a type longterm ) then did some research many others were having same issues I then did research and was looking for oils that did both testing CJ4 and CK4 and well was almost always the amsoil / redline / royal purple and well those are out of my price range LOL. I later came to the conversation with a good friend of mine which is a diesel performance engineer for a major company not going to say his name and he turned me onto the Sinopec TULUX T700 which people in the oil testing scene turned him onto as a good all around oil for almost any diesel on market new or old.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  6. CBRF3

    CBRF3 Full Access Member

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    Sorry if some of my posts look like walls of texts i am a type that has to put a block of text down then post it then try to fix any issues and add punctuation if I feel like it LOL I am not to big about forums chats and such myself I manly read them and rarely engage in them unless its something that really peaks my interest LOL.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  7. stick_witch

    stick_witch Full Access Member

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    No worries at all, im the same exact way lol


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  8. nelstomlinson

    nelstomlinson Full Access Member

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    We could add it ourselves, it's available online. I think the old spec was met with around 1100 ppm? I'll stick to suitable oils that I can buy at Walmart, while they are available.

    Our IDIs have roller lifters, which makes this a little less important for them. Some of my older diesels have flat lifters, and they really need the zinc.
     
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  9. stick_witch

    stick_witch Full Access Member

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    Sounds about right, probably was like 1100 or 1200. My Rotella T4 CK4 15w40 tested in at like 1047ppm of zinc and 46ppm moly, just barely up there. I think these engines are happy in the 1200-1300ppm range. Gonna definitely send some VOA’s out and see what I like best, and look into potentially trying a zinc equivalent supplement if I don’t like the options.


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  10. CBRF3

    CBRF3 Full Access Member

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    Be carefull when you start changing the oils chemistry you can get some bad outcomes this is not a cut and dry scenario and is risky as when certain additives start breaking down it might swing the PH in the acidic direction or cause sludge because of the after market additive actually caused the oils natural balance to be off making its breakdown faster or other issues can occur like cylinder wall glazing / hazing remember alot of the additives in the oil are already there to offset the lower ZDDP so if you add ZDDP can cause bad things to occur.

    Yes our motors have roller lifters but we also run on the lower side of the oil pressure normal compared to other diesels using roller lifters and our lifters roller section is kind of odd because some use a bushing and some use needle bearings in our engines also we kind of have a high rocker to lifter ratios for our design especially with the low oil pressure involved most motors with our lifter / rocker ratio run at idle in the 40+psi range while ours is around the 20psi range and at speed at running temp we run 40ish psi while others with roller lifters and the rocker to lifter ratio we have run around 60+psi so again we are a odd ball in the group with the roller lifters.

    our rockers run at 1.5:1 ratio most engines with roller rockers and our oil pressure are around the 1.25:1 ratio so again we get a longer duration of strain because of the time our valves are open because of our stroke of our motors and we get more resistance against our lifters than most diesels with our rocker ratio and other motors they run substantially higher oil pressure to cushion that load and bleed more oil around the cam area for increased lube.

    our engines were designed around flow / volume of oil not oil pressure and were originally designed for a international harvester tractor aka continous run at a set RPM around 2800rpm's this is also why our motors hate to be lugged down low on RPM's our low oil pressure means when lugged more metal to metal contact occurs and less lube is targeted around the cam area.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
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  11. nelstomlinson

    nelstomlinson Full Access Member

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    That's one reason I'm planning to stick to the higher ZDDP oils on the Ford list, as long as they are available. Especially while they are relatively cheap at the Fairbanks Walmart.
     
  12. CBRF3

    CBRF3 Full Access Member

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    I agree with you but again I brought up the other oil as a affordable option for the OP of the thread and again been using it for a while with really good results.
     

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