Questioning my timing

pelky350

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Oregon fuel injection timed my truck to their standards of however I don't belive they've had proper equiptment and I wasted my money. Truck smelt like raw fuel out exhaust etc timing was retarded. Gained some power advancing it a hair and no smelly hazy idle anymore. Today I was just messing around decided to hit my cold timing advanced highway cruising and give it some throttle and I gained 3 psi more than normal. Turned it back off same full throttle accel again and lost about 3 psi back to normal. I think it needs advanced more but I'm wary of doing so I don't wish to kill my motor. With my 90cc it gets the over fueling noise so judging my timing by the sound doesn't seem to be so helpful anymore. Once turbo catches up it doesn't rattle so hard. It's all hard to explain but I'm in Eugene Oregon anyone around have timing equiptment??
 

saburai

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So you've got the cold advance on a dash switch?
Try to find a Snap on mt 257 and use a timing light. I scored a mt 257 used in perfect condition for $75. There are other alternatives as well, the Snap on blue point mt 275b is $300 new, but I'd bet there's a few floating around used. There are other options as well. Imho, if you are going to make a habit of messing around with these old trucks, take the time to find yourself some timing equipment. I know that it can cost a few $$ but to me, it's just the price of admission...
 

icanfixall

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Might contact Russ aka typ4. He has a kent moore j33300 meter. He lives in Oregon too.
 

FordGolfer7

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I recently purchased a Rotunda Tach/Timing Meter 78-0100 with the 7.3 IDI adapter. The unit is missing the luminosity probe and the Cetane gravity tester. I think I understand there is a way to use this tool with a regular timing light, eliminating the need for the luminosity probe. Can anyone explain to me how to do this? I am a newbie to this field and will need some help in getting my 1989 F350 Crew Cab Dually running like a top.
 

genscripter

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The OP's situation is precisely why I'm not a huge advocate of the mantra of TIMING TIMING TIMING.

From a previous post:

I've seen this discussion several times on this forum, and I respectfully disagree about the statement that the timing gun is the best way to properly time an IDI. That said, I not supporting the inverse: timing by ear. Instead, I'd argue that the timing gun is only a minor tool in the process of what I call "timing by performance."

I've owned a timing gun and ferret meter for years now. All a timing gun is good for it telling you a number. That number may have very little impact on whether your IDI is properly optimized for timing. So many factors play into the variability of how that particular IDI is "timed," that the arbitrary number is cool to know, but it's not likely the best performance for your engine.

Several factors can alter the "timing" of an IDI: how an IP was rebuilt, the inlet fuel pressure, injector pop pressure and rebuilding, cam and crank variations, different turbo variations, fuel screw rotation, injector line radii, etc. Slapping a ferret meter on and timing it just tells you that you have it to a specific BTDC degree, but depending on your setup, that might not be optimal. When you rotate your IP, you are altering that number, and just because it reads the stock (or turbo) timing spec, doesn't mean that it's done. Sometimes a neighboring timing degree might get the turbo to spool up better. A lot of factors come into play on these imprecise and mechanical diesel engines.

For the most part, getting it close to stock spec would be ok for the average IDI owner. But if you have modified or repaired your engine or fuel system (and who in this group hasn't), then I'd recommend "timing it by performance." This means to time it with a gun to get it to stock spec, then conduct several 0.5deg - 2deg timing variations and drive it, recording MPG, boost, EGT, and other performance data, while carefully recording fuel usage. Eventually, you'll find the optimal timing position for that particular engine. The optimal performance timing might end up being the stock spec, but it might not. It'll take some work to investigate the neighboring degrees relative to the spec.

The timing gun is also good for returning the timing (to the respective previously-tested "optimal" position), if you ever had to remove the IP or do a repair that required you to tear down your injection system. But if you buy new injectors or a pump, then you are back to timing by performance to find that optimal timing position. That's why I don't really take the digital timing spec as gospel. Stock spec might be close to ideal, but with more testing, you might find even more power, boost, or efficiency.
 

pelky350

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@genscripter i was going by feel of performances beforw but it seems towant me to advance it more. More advanced it gets a few more psi. However it sounds like I'm gonna kill it by how loud the "diesel rattle" gets. Louder than it's been before. The reason for wanting to time it with a meter is so I don't burn my motor up running too advanced. Yes egt gauge Is there but too advanced timing causes extra cilinder pressure, and without studs and running over 15psi I'm already pushing it. I guess I'll try advancing it a little more for now and see how that goes. Judging timing by amount of smoke isn't easy either my truck runs a lot of fuel and with intercooler it's always gonna have a good black puff of smoke before air catches up
 

FordGolfer7

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To clarify what I am trying to time with the meter is a naturally aspirated 7.3 IDI, if that will make a difference in how the meter is used.
 

Thewespaul

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@genscripter i was going by feel of performances beforw but it seems towant me to advance it more. More advanced it gets a few more psi. However it sounds like I'm gonna kill it by how loud the "diesel rattle" gets. Louder than it's been before. The reason for wanting to time it with a meter is so I don't burn my motor up running too advanced. Yes egt gauge Is there but too advanced timing causes extra cilinder pressure, and without studs and running over 15psi I'm already pushing it. I guess I'll try advancing it a little more for now and see how that goes. Judging timing by amount of smoke isn't easy either my truck runs a lot of fuel and with intercooler it's always gonna have a good black puff of smoke before air catches up
Like they say, if it tastes like ****, smells like **** and sounds like ****, it’s probably ****. If your gut says it sounds too advanced and it sounds like it’s gonna hurt something, you’re going to far
 
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bbjordan

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For the most part, getting it close to stock spec would be ok for the average IDI owner. But if you have modified or repaired your engine or fuel system (and who in this group hasn't), then I'd recommend "timing it by performance." This means to time it with a gun to get it to stock spec, then conduct several 0.5deg - 2deg timing variations and drive it, recording MPG, boost, EGT, and other performance data, while carefully recording fuel usage. Eventually, you'll find the optimal timing position for that particular engine. The optimal performance timing might end up being the stock spec, but it might not. It'll take some work to investigate the neighboring degrees relative to the spec.

This ^^^.

As corroborating evidence, here is a spreadsheet of timings of different IPs on different trucks with different tweaks. I was hoping to find a general pattern, but the results were all over the place.

The site won't let me upload a .xlsx file, but you can find it here: http://www.blackwire.com/~bjordan/Tech/IDI_timings.xlsx

The second tab (Chart) has a graph of all the timings.
 

FordGolfer7

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The information Iam looking for is how to hook up the meter when using a timing light instead of the luminosity probe. I have the instruction manual for the 78-0100 timing meter. I have surmised the 7.3 adapter is used in lieu of the magnetic timing probe, if I am incorrect on this please advise. What I am totally confused about is the use of the timing light, how and where do I hook it up, what is the target for the timing light, how do I know what the meter is telling me, etc.

Thanks for any and all help and information.
 

raydav

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I have a Tach-n-Time, and both mag pickup and timing light. After I put in a fresh engine I had the timing all over the place. I finally settled on a spot that happens to be no rattle after warm up. I could have done that without all the gear.
 

pelky350

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@Thewespaul i just can't tell though, the rattled is non existent after turbo spools up, it's only down low at abound 2000 under acceleration things start cleaning up finally till 2500ish and then it seems like I think just kinda signs out for the day. Boost stops building and no more pull just kinda keeps doing its thing. Anything below 1500 with over half throttle it's puking it's guts out, black smoke, death sounding clatter and almost feels like a loss of power. It almost like nothing is tuned right in a sense. The sweet spot for power seems to be 1700-2400. Instant 11psi boost is had there but that's it's for boost. As mentioned obove though flip my timing advance on and get like 13-14 psi max boost. I feel like the number Is low but no leaks anywhere and it's basically cleaned to a lighter haze not a heavy black smoke.
 

Thewespaul

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@Thewespaul i just can't tell though, the rattled is non existent after turbo spools up, it's only down low at abound 2000 under acceleration things start cleaning up finally till 2500ish and then it seems like I think just kinda signs out for the day. Boost stops building and no more pull just kinda keeps doing its thing. Anything below 1500 with over half throttle it's puking it's guts out, black smoke, death sounding clatter and almost feels like a loss of power. It almost like nothing is tuned right in a sense. The sweet spot for power seems to be 1700-2400. Instant 11psi boost is had there but that's it's for boost. As mentioned obove though flip my timing advance on and get like 13-14 psi max boost. I feel like the number Is low but no leaks anywhere and it's basically cleaned to a lighter haze not a heavy black smoke.
Just to give you some perspective, here’s a clip of the shop truck starting in 3rd and rowing through the gears. I lugged it down low so you can see where it starts to pick up.
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Keep in mind this is a stock 200k mile turbo, basically a junkyard pump I pulled off a parts truck and modified, and this was before going through the injectors and resetting them.

I think part of the issues you may be having may be related to your face plate settings, especially with having a better result at part throttle. This is the plate/cam the advance arm rides on and determines when and how much the advance arm pushes in on the cam, retarding your timing the more throttle you give. I would scribe a mark so you know where your alignment is now, and play with it back and forth and see if you can get an improvement.

I’m working on a diy ip tuning and modification article, but it’s not going to be ready anytime soon because I need to get on the test bench one more time, but I have had good success with some face plate adjustments. If you feel you need more fuel out of that pump shoot me a pm and I’ll give you some pointers.
 

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