Performance

NMB2

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spoke with him on the phone again today about this. He agreed that his injectors spray more of a stream than a fan. He continued to explain that in his experience, and it backed up what I was thinking earlier.. correct me if I'm wrong, but a pattern means basically NOTHING on an IDI. Its spraying into a pre-cup. He said he builds them for fuel delivery. I asked him about the rough idle and smoke, he agreed that these injectors can likely cause that and continued to say that a worn out or mediocre IP worsens that effect, stating that with a fresh pump, or his turbo calibrated pump.. timed between 8.5-9 @ 2000 you will notice almost no difference at idle. Injectors are set to pop at 2250 +/- 100psi.

Injectors are ready to ship today, turbo calibrated IP are ready to ship the day after order.
 

redneckaggie

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the fuel must be atomized correctly for proper burn and no matter whether you are looking for performance or mileage, unburnt fuel does you no good for either.
 

NMB2

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the fuel must be atomized correctly for proper burn and no matter whether you are looking for performance or mileage, unburnt fuel does you no good for either.

I dont buy it....

An indirect injection diesel engine delivers fuel into a chamber off the combustion chamber, called a prechamber, where combustion begins and then spreads into the main combustion chamber. The prechamber is carefully designed to ensure adequate mixing of the atomized fuel with the compression-heated air.

Precombustion chamber

This chamber is located at the cylinder head and is connected to the engine cylinder by small holes. It occupies 40% of the total cylinder volume. During the compression stroke, air from the main cylinder enters the precombustion chamber. At this moment, fuel is injected into the precombustion chamber and combustion begins. Pressure increases and the fuel droplets are forced through the small holes into the main cylinder, resulting in a very good mix of the fuel and air. The bulk of the combustion actually takes place in the main cylinder. This type of combustion chamber has multi-fuel capability because the temperature of the prechamber vaporizes the fuel before the main combustion event occurs.

the heat in the pre-cup alone deals with the atomizing... So yes, until the precup gets warm it'll run a bit dirty, but, that will happen after one combustion event
 

Abull78

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I dont buy it....

An indirect injection diesel engine delivers fuel into a chamber off the combustion chamber, called a prechamber, where combustion begins and then spreads into the main combustion chamber. The prechamber is carefully designed to ensure adequate mixing of the atomized fuel with the compression-heated air.

Precombustion chamber

This chamber is located at the cylinder head and is connected to the engine cylinder by small holes. It occupies 40% of the total cylinder volume. During the compression stroke, air from the main cylinder enters the precombustion chamber. At this moment, fuel is injected into the precombustion chamber and combustion begins. Pressure increases and the fuel droplets are forced through the small holes into the main cylinder, resulting in a very good mix of the fuel and air. The bulk of the combustion actually takes place in the main cylinder. This type of combustion chamber has multi-fuel capability because the temperature of the prechamber vaporizes the fuel before the main combustion event occurs.

the heat in the pre-cup alone deals with the atomizing... So yes, until the precup gets warm it'll run a bit dirty, but, that will happen after one combustion event

Oh the hail of bullets you are asking for...............
 

NMB2

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Oh the hail of bullets you are asking for...............

not at all. Everyone is, (or should be) mature here. If I'm wrong, explain it.. I'm not one that just jumps onto a bandwagon, especially with there is evidence against such claims.
 

icanfixall

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NMB2... Are you factoring in the precup material??? They are made from inconel and are very good with heat and abraision. Do you think maybe they get hot and use that heat to aid in the combustion process.....Or are they just made out of that material for the heat they are subjected to....Don't be in a hurry to discount oppinions here. Some are based on years of experiance with these motors....:sly
 

Agnem

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You probably spoke to Ken. Ken's a great IDI enthusiast, and someone I have personally met, and rode in his hopped up IDI, which at the time was running on 7 cylinders, because they burned up a piston at a tractor pull earlier that week. I also used to be a customer of Ken's, and had one of his DPS pumps, and also a set of DPS Stage 1 injectors. I'm not going to say anything bad about Ken or DPS. There is plenty of that already said by others that you can read for yourself. I'm only going to relate to you my personal experience and observations. In my view, there are 3 issues with DPS stuff.

1) - Product consistency
2) - Product availability
3) - After the sale support

With regard to #1, let me tell you about the DPS injectors I bought. I ordered a set, and so did PAFixitMan (Joe Lewis), at the same time. We both got brand new Delphi injectors, that had DPS engraved on them, and were obviously modified. The pintle on a DPS injector does not look "right". I installed mine, and noticed right away, a difference to the sound of the idle. Otherwise, they ran OK, althought there was a lot of smoke. Then I went and helped Joe install his. We pop tested them, and saw the spray pattern was non-existent. They *** and **** all over the place, but true to what Ken had told me, this was to be expected. So as long as the pop presure was good they were assumed to be OK. Joe then went and helped another fellow install his. I forget exactly who it was. He called me and said "Mel, that guys injectors didn't look anything like ours did. It looked like Ken just spray painted them black, and stuck them in the box." That's all I'm going to say on that matter.

As for #2, ask anyone who has ordered stuff from DPS, and you will find out that product delivery is spotty. OK, granted that can happen to anyone. so no big deal there.

#3 however, is why I got into the business of providing performance pumps and injectors to this community. In addition to the DPS injectors, I had a DPS pump. It had a problem from day 1, that Ken never addressed. At 1400 RPM, it would begin to go into oscilations that would drive you crazy. It was also my cruising speed, so this was a particularly harsh problem for me. Since Ken wouldn't deal with it, I spent my money and took the pump to somebody who could. That act became the genesis for my Moose Products. So you see, Ken is responsible directly for his current competition. If it wasn't for his legendary lack of customer service, he wouldn't have any.

About the injector design - You have already heard Ken's philosophy, that because the engine is an IDI, you don't need a spray pattern. This is B.S. in the most massive and misguided way possible, and Heath Sutton is the proof. We have before and after dyno results that proved there is a difference between DPS stage 1's and Moose Misters. However, the difference is not on the graph paper. It is on Heath's boost gauge. Heath ran the dyno with DPS injectors and maxed out his boost gauge at 12 PSI. He quickly swapped in a set of Moose Misters on-site, AT the dyno, and ran again. The Moose Misters pegged his 15 PSI gauge. He really has no idea what the boost number actually is. He lost horsepower, because the extra boost superheated his intake charge. But, boost and the burning of fuel are directly related. The Moose Misters caused more of Heath's fuel to burn per combustion stroke. The fine atomization resulted in a more efficient and more complete combustion of the fuel being introduced into the pre-cup. There was much less smoke. Idle returned to "stock" conditions, and his milage has gone up. I also swapped out my DPS stage 1's for Moose Misters, and have identical results. More boost, better mileage. So, if you think that spray pattern is not important, your going to have a hard time arguing with hard data that indicates otherwise.
 

liddledoggie

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didnt we pop test heaths dps injectors after the dyno and found they popedoff at a lower pressure?
 

Agnem

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Indeed. But in fairness to DPS, I don't know how many miles were on them, or if they were tested prior to installation.
 

redneckaggie

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you are entitled to not buy it but im just saying that is the concensus of ALL diesel mechanics i have ever spoke to including one that made his living working on these engines for years. And you cant get those guys to agree on anything. Icanfixall also pointed out a really good point about the inconel. I did not know that was the case but after working around inconel and spending time with guys who had worked around it all of their life I dont believe that it would "hold heat" to disapate the fuel better. I know when welding it it doesnt
 

sle2115

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I dont buy it....

An indirect injection diesel engine delivers fuel into a chamber off the combustion chamber, called a prechamber, where combustion begins and then spreads into the main combustion chamber. The prechamber is carefully designed to ensure adequate mixing of the atomized fuel with the compression-heated air.

Precombustion chamber

This chamber is located at the cylinder head and is connected to the engine cylinder by small holes. It occupies 40% of the total cylinder volume. During the compression stroke, air from the main cylinder enters the precombustion chamber. At this moment, fuel is injected into the precombustion chamber and combustion begins. Pressure increases and the fuel droplets are forced through the small holes into the main cylinder, resulting in a very good mix of the fuel and air. The bulk of the combustion actually takes place in the main cylinder. This type of combustion chamber has multi-fuel capability because the temperature of the prechamber vaporizes the fuel before the main combustion event occurs.

the heat in the pre-cup alone deals with the atomizing... So yes, until the precup gets warm it'll run a bit dirty, but, that will happen after one combustion event


Might want to look at a pre-cup...just sayin!
 

FordGuy100

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I say we all stop bickering. What's your average fuel economy now? Report back after 10,000 miles and we shall see. Who knows, maybe Ken will suprise us.
 

93f250idi

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Hesutton may sell his. He said there sitting on a shelf and he'd feel bad for selling them to someone. You may pm him and see
 

NMB2

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You probably spoke to Ken. Ken's a great IDI enthusiast, and someone I have personally met, and rode in his hopped up IDI, which at the time was running on 7 cylinders, because they burned up a piston at a tractor pull earlier that week. I also used to be a customer of Ken's, and had one of his DPS pumps, and also a set of DPS Stage 1 injectors. I'm not going to say anything bad about Ken or DPS. There is plenty of that already said by others that you can read for yourself. I'm only going to relate to you my personal experience and observations. In my view, there are 3 issues with DPS stuff.

1) - Product consistency
2) - Product availability
3) - After the sale support

With regard to #1, let me tell you about the DPS injectors I bought. I ordered a set, and so did PAFixitMan (Joe Lewis), at the same time. We both got brand new Delphi injectors, that had DPS engraved on them, and were obviously modified. The pintle on a DPS injector does not look "right". I installed mine, and noticed right away, a difference to the sound of the idle. Otherwise, they ran OK, althought there was a lot of smoke. Then I went and helped Joe install his. We pop tested them, and saw the spray pattern was non-existent. They *** and **** all over the place, but true to what Ken had told me, this was to be expected. So as long as the pop presure was good they were assumed to be OK. Joe then went and helped another fellow install his. I forget exactly who it was. He called me and said "Mel, that guys injectors didn't look anything like ours did. It looked like Ken just spray painted them black, and stuck them in the box." That's all I'm going to say on that matter.

As for #2, ask anyone who has ordered stuff from DPS, and you will find out that product delivery is spotty. OK, granted that can happen to anyone. so no big deal there.

#3 however, is why I got into the business of providing performance pumps and injectors to this community. In addition to the DPS injectors, I had a DPS pump. It had a problem from day 1, that Ken never addressed. At 1400 RPM, it would begin to go into oscilations that would drive you crazy. It was also my cruising speed, so this was a particularly harsh problem for me. Since Ken wouldn't deal with it, I spent my money and took the pump to somebody who could. That act became the genesis for my Moose Products. So you see, Ken is responsible directly for his current competition. If it wasn't for his legendary lack of customer service, he wouldn't have any.

About the injector design - You have already heard Ken's philosophy, that because the engine is an IDI, you don't need a spray pattern. This is B.S. in the most massive and misguided way possible, and Heath Sutton is the proof. We have before and after dyno results that proved there is a difference between DPS stage 1's and Moose Misters. However, the difference is not on the graph paper. It is on Heath's boost gauge. Heath ran the dyno with DPS injectors and maxed out his boost gauge at 12 PSI. He quickly swapped in a set of Moose Misters on-site, AT the dyno, and ran again. The Moose Misters pegged his 15 PSI gauge. He really has no idea what the boost number actually is. He lost horsepower, because the extra boost superheated his intake charge. But, boost and the burning of fuel are directly related. The Moose Misters caused more of Heath's fuel to burn per combustion stroke. The fine atomization resulted in a more efficient and more complete combustion of the fuel being introduced into the pre-cup. There was much less smoke. Idle returned to "stock" conditions, and his milage has gone up. I also swapped out my DPS stage 1's for Moose Misters, and have identical results. More boost, better mileage. So, if you think that spray pattern is not important, your going to have a hard time arguing with hard data that indicates otherwise.

yep, I spoke to Ken. He assured me the injectors coming to me would be brand new Delphi's with DPS engraved, like you have described. He told me they would be set to pop at 2250 +/- 100psi.

When I asked him about the rough idle/smoke he said that is mostly due to people using poor or mediocre IP's, and timing not set right.. he recomended 8.5* @ 2,000rpm.

I personally ended up not getting the injectors yet, but I did order a turbo calibrated xx31 pump. UPS says it will be here mid next week.

Heath himself said his mileage went up by 1mpg, maybe 2mpg switching from DPS stage1 to Misters, and I keep hearing that the DPS setup made more power?

My main question, why are the misters worth $650 more than the DPS injectors?

edit: Keep in mind I also have a 7.3 intercooler.
 
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