New Champion Radiator- Does not seem to be cooling as well as the stock?

[agp23109]

I installed a new Champion Aluminum radiator as I was looking to achieve maximum cooling while towing. I have a mechanical Autometer temp gauge in the overtemp port and with the stock radiator I would see about 195-205 while driving empty. When towing I would see 215-235 while towing heavy depending on grades. Fan would kick in around 220-225 and would drop temps pretty well and keep temps down unless I was pulling a long grade in the Sierras. The stock radiator was only about 3 years old and was in as good of shape as it could be. After the install temps seem to stay around 200-205 while empty and when towing on flat ground in about 88 degrees I was hovering around 220-225. In similar situations with the old radiator I would be running around 210-220. My fan does not seem to be kicking on like it used to. When it does kick on it does not sound as loud as it used to and temps don't drop like it did with the old radiator. My concern is I am heading up to the Sierras this weekend and I'm worried about temps.

The thermostat was a Motorcraft unit and was replaced when the radiator was done 3 years ago. I did not replace it with the new radiator as it seemed to be functioning fine. Water pump was also replaced at that time as well. I used Final Charge coolant when I did the radiator this time around. Had regular coolant with SCA's before.

Fan clutch seems to be fine, no signs of leaking and will kick on, especially when I slow down and there is less air flow alowing the underhood temps to heat up. I also replaced the a/c condensor at the same time as the Champion radiator so there definitly isn't any blockage issues. Everyting is as clean as the day it rolled off the lot!

Unlike some peoples experiances, the Champion went in fine and everything bolted up with no problem. I know from reading other posts that the overtemp port will read hotter than the stock temp location. My stock temp gauge is not hooked up so I don't know what that is reading (as if it really matters since its a glorified idiot light).

I began looking at the intstall and other reasons for the increased temps. I noticed that the fan shroud now has about a 1" gap on both the top and the bottom. The old radiator was pretty much flush. Could this be the reason for the increased temps and poor fan peformance? I have a hard time believing that the fan decided to start to go bad at the same time the radiator was replaced. Coult the Final Charge coolant not be tranfering heat as well (50/50 mix with distilled water)? I know most people with the Champion radiator are singing their cooling praises so I wonder why mine is so different. If it is the shroud gap issues, what should I use to fill in the gap? Has any other Champion users experianced this?

Any sugestions would be appreciated. I am thinking of moving my temp probe to the stock location to see what that is registering. Will that be a pain to do since the engine is intact? Can I get to it with the injection pump installed? From reading other posts it appears the stock port is underneath the injection pump and I have not looked at it to see if I can get my probe installed.

One last thing, my injection pump is a u-haul remand unit and the injectors are new BB's with around 5k miles on them. Timing is set at 9.2 degrees at 2000 rpms via a ferret adapter.

Thanks in advance! (I tried to load pic's of the shroud gap but I'm having issues getting the pictures to upload.)

 

[franklin2]

Don't move your temp probes so they read different. You need to keep them the same so you are comparing before and after with the same probes in the same position.

Reading your post, I believe you have said what the problem is, your fan is not kicking on as early as it was. If we assume the fan is still working properly, then the only conclusion could be the bi-metal on the fan clutch is not getting the hot air that is used to get in the other setup, or you accidentally bumped it changing radiators. You alluded to the fan shroud being different also, and if this affects how the air hits the fan clutch sensing unit, then that could be it also.

You are after all only around 5 degrees different from your previous setup correct?

 

[FORDF250HDXLT]

you had perfection before you started.the correct temps even when towing heavy and the correct coolant.why mess with perfection? seems like there are so many people here who don't understand the idi's normal operating temp.
the coolant your running now isn't for diesel engines pre '99.
id suggest you flush and go back to your copper/brass and fleetcharge.this is the setup i run.since it's a new (just 3 yrs old) you just can't beat it.
still,your under 240 so your good to go besides running elc.
im not a fan of engine timing so far advanced either.needless clatter is all i got.

 

[agp23109]

The reason for the swap was when I hit 235 (and climbing) I was pulling a travel trailer that grossed out at around 5k pounds on a long grade. Wasn't too steep, around 3 1/2-4%, but I didn't like it because there was no where to pull over. Luckily I made it to the top before I hit 240. I had my wife and kids in the truck at the time. I recently bought a new 5th wheel that empty weighs around 6k pounds. With gear and everything I'll probably be pushing 7k. Combine that the larger wind resistance of a 5th wheel I wanted maximum cooling if I were in a similar situation again. And franklin2, it is only 5 degrees but I assumed it would be the same or less. What really worried me was the fan's actions. From further reading I have been doing the gaps in my fan shroud apparently are an issue and can make a drastic difference. I start there since it's an easy fix and see where it goes. Thanks for the responses!

 

[FORDF250HDXLT]

Aaron,i recently installed an aux oil cooler to help lower coolant temps and it works awesome!
you may want to check the oil temps after a long grade to see if your having the issues i had.
it wasn't cheap,but the difference was drastic.now at this time of year my coolant temp is resting on 192 even with the sending unit @ the over temp light sender location when under no load (fans off) and in the summer it helped keep her from pushing the quick high coolant spikes.
i didn't really have much of an issue before the intercooler,but she was running too hot after and the oil temps transferred to the coolant quick.not anymore.
i see an intercooler is coming in your sig.so just a heads up.it appears these little banks turbo's may be overworking a bit when intercooled and i ran a smaller FMIC than you have planned and i ran fairly small pipe.-perhaps i should have run larger pipe? doubt it lol.turbo is small.she's heating the oil working harder to fill the extra volume is what im thinking.anyway:
http://www.oilburners.net/forums/showthread.php?65533-aux-oil-cooler-install


-
copper/brass
13 lb cap
motorcraft t-stat
fleetcharge 50/50
FMIC 3" thick (covers pretty much full grill area)
maxxed oem spec n/a ip
dual e-fans
8 psi peaks (full hard-steep hills.)
banks wastegated sidewinder
engine timing @ 7 BTDC
G code injectors
900 -1000 EGT peaks

 

[agp23109]

Thanks for the info. I've considered an oil cooler for some time. Might just do it now. The way I figure it is since I don't have a new truck payment, if I drop $500 every now and then on an upgrade I'm money ahead. I had a nice new 06 cummins awhile back and although I at times miss the truck, I don't miss the payment! I don't expect my idi to be a cummins, I'm just looking for reliability, that's the biggest reason I'm trying to keep the temps in check. So far, aside from pulling long grades, I have no complaints with the idi. Don't mind going slower, just wanting temps to stay at 230 or lower if possible.

 

[TWeatherford]

Do you have a 2 row or 3 row radiator. I switched from a 4 row copper/brass to a 2 row champion aluminum and had a similar experience as you are. My original radiator cooled fine, but started leaking. The new radiator barely kept it cool enough on grades in summer temps with 2000 lbs behind it. I had a real gauge in the stock senders location before and after the radiator replacement.

 

[vegas39]

I just did a bunch of reading, comparing aluminum radiators to copper/brass radiators and they say that a copper/brass radiator has a slight cooling edge over aluminum.
I also read that a 2 row aluminum is equivalent to a 4 row brass unit, so go figure.

I also feel that my new aluminum radiator doesnt cool as well as the brass unit I removed. I had to compensate by swapping the fan clutch from my other truck, it seems to lock up sooner but still gotta be careful in certain situations.

 

[OLDBULL8]

Any sugestions would be appreciated. I am thinking of moving my temp probe to the stock location to see what that is registering. Will that be a pain to do since the engine is intact? Can I get to it with the injection pump installed? From reading other posts it appears the stock port is underneath the injection pump and I have not looked at it to see if I can get my probe installed.

The stock gauge port is the lower one on the head, the overtemp port is the one close to the IP.

 

[riotwarrior]

I installed a new Champion Aluminum radiator as I was looking to achieve maximum cooling while towing. I have a mechanical Autometer temp gauge in the overtemp port and with the stock radiator I would see about 195-205 while driving empty.

When towing I would see 215-235 while towing heavy depending on grades. Fan would kick in around 220-225 and would drop temps pretty well and keep temps down unless I was pulling a long grade in the Sierras. The stock radiator was only about 3 years old and was in as good of shape as it could be.

After the install temps seem to stay around 200-205 while empty and when towing on flat ground in about 88 degrees I was hovering around 220-225. In similar situations with the old radiator I would be running around 210-220. My fan does not seem to be kicking on like it used to. When it does kick on it does not sound as loud as it used to and temps don't drop like it did with the old radiator. My concern is I am heading up to the Sierras this weekend and I'm worried about temps.

This to me right here is key, I'm wondering why the old rad caused fan to kick in more than the new one? Makes no sense, could it be that the temp though slightly higher is lets say more level less peaky? Is the fact that the fan NOT kicking in a sign that the rad is actually doing more work with less assistance than the old one?

The thermostat was a Motorcraft unit and was replaced when the radiator was done 3 years ago. I did not replace it with the new radiator as it seemed to be functioning fine. Water pump was also replaced at that time as well. I used Final Charge coolant when I did the radiator this time around. Had regular coolant with SCA's before.

Not sure if you replaced wp when did the champion rad or 3 years ago, no idea...ambiguous comment hard to follow but regardless should have no bearing on situation.

Fan clutch seems to be fine, no signs of leaking and will kick on, especially when I slow down and there is less air flow alowing the underhood temps to heat up. I also replaced the a/c condensor at the same time as the Champion radiator so there definitly isn't any blockage issues. Everyting is as clean as the day it rolled off the lot

Seems to be working fine, yet previously it isn't in the same post, which is it? Yes it's working as it should no it's not?

I began looking at the intstall and other reasons for the increased temps. I noticed that the fan shroud now has about a 1" gap on both the top and the bottom. The old radiator was pretty much flush. Could this be the reason for the increased temps and poor fan peformance? I have a hard time believing that the fan decided to start to go bad at the same time the radiator was replaced......

Yes the fact there is a gap can have an affect on how fan draws air through rad, it will draw more air from the wrong side with those gaps, not sure what to tell you on how to fix that gap.. I'm sure you can think of something.

All in all you've changed two items at one time and have no idea which caused the issue of higher heat. AC condensor could have a higher fin count and be obstructing air flow more than old one, though new and perceived in good condition it may cause restriction.

I'm not sure what you should do, perhaps start by sealing that gap, I have the same one on my Champion setup. I was not concerned with it.

The fan not coming on as it did before speaks volumes, it just is interpreting that info that is the hard part.

JM2CW

Al

 

[FORDF250HDXLT]

The stock gauge port is the lower one on the head, the overtemp port is the one close to the IP.

i believe thats right around the other way right?

 

[CDX825]

the coolant your running now isn't for diesel engines pre '99.

Not true! Final Charge does not have the 2EHA in it that other ELCs have that causes issues in pre 99 engine. Its one of the few that meets the Cummins 14603 spec witch means it will not attack older seals and gaskets.

 

[agp23109]

TWeatherford- I have the three core. Have to say I was impressed with the initial quality. We'll see how it holds up.

As for the Final Charge, everything I have read said it is ok to use with the older engines. My engine was rebuilt in 2001 and at that time all the gaskets were replaced. The original owner was running ELC in it and I have yet to have a problem. Don't know if the gaskets used were made up of newer material that could handle it or if I was just lucky.

I'm leaning towards riotwarriors theory that the new AC condenser might be a bit differnt causing the air flow hitting the fan clutch to be different than the old set up. I am going to seal the gaps in the shroud and hit the Sierras in a couple of days. We'll see how it does. Weather is forcasted to be in the 60-70's when I'm traveling so I think I'll be ok. I'll reply with the results.

I am also leaning towards the oil cooler adding more heat becasue of the turbo. I'm not exactly sure of the coolant flow through the motor but the oil cooler is below the over temp port and at the time I was boosting around 7-10 psi. Obviously the engine was working hard, I just thought I would see a little cooler temps.