low sulfur fuels are bad??

jimraelee

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I recently read in the bio-wvo thread about new low sulfur fuels. One guy was commenting about how LSF is bad for the inj pump??? any ideas why?? Seems all the stations Ive been pulling into have the sticker on the pump, so I'm forced to deal with it. :dunno
 

6 Nebraska IDIs

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it will kill our injection pumps apparently. Not enough lubrication. If you have to run LSF, you need to put additive in every tank to compensate for it.
 

Diesel JD

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You will deal with it...unless you break the law and use off road 500ppm fuel or go bio/wvo. I'm not so sure that the ULSD is bad for the pump per se. What I think happens is that the seals become "seated" to a certain level of aromatics and when you introduce a new fuel with a much lower level of aromatics and much different characteristics overall to a well broken in pump, you may have leaks do to seals shrinking. Also the sulfur being taken out is a good thing, from an environmental, health, and engine health perspective, since sulfur contributes to oil breakdown, and acidification and thus acid attack on the bearings. Its not the sulfur we're missing, its the lubricity of the D2 that is lost in the process. Some biodiesel, SVO or a good fuel additive will solve that, but I'm not so sure there's anyway to avoid the potential seal problems.
 

MIDNIGHT RIDER

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We have been hit with de-sulfurization TWICE in the last fifteen years, once with the LSD, when they started dying off-road fuel RED, and then recently, with the new ULSD.

The problem with both versions is that the Sulphur, while not being of any real benefit itself, sort of bonds itself with the lubricating elements that used to be in diesel.

Removing the Sulphur, thus removing the lubricants, pretty much makes diesel fuel into a paint thinner.

Especially since the advent of ULSD, there has been a plague of leaking injector-pumps, failing rubber fuel-lines, and failing diaphragm fuel pumps; I don't know the scientifics behind the reasons for this.

In an attempt to combat the wear and tear on things, in summer, I add either one 15-oz bottle of STP engine-oil-additive, or one gallon filtered used oil, to each twenty gallons of diesel.

Starting in late fall, I quit the STP/used-oil, and begin adding 8-ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil and 12-ounces of white-bottle Power-Service to each twenty gallons of diesel.


RED-dyed farm/off-road fuel is permitted to have the old LSD sulphur content; but, in reality, it is too much of a hassle for fuel bulk-plants to store and handle two seperate fuels that do the same thing, so you can bet that the RED farm fuel is exactly the same fuel as the un-dyed ULSD, the only difference being the RED dye and no road tax.


Remember the good old Regular and Premium LEADED gas days ??

When the government made the refineries take the lead out of gas, they made NO provision for older leaded-gas engines; the engine designers had to find metals that could hold up to the lack of lead in the gas; try running an older leaded-gas engine on un-leaded-gas and see how many miles you get before the valve seats/stems erode away.

Unless the valves/seats have already been replaced with the later versions, you won't get far.

It is the same way with the new diesel fuels; they couldn't care less what damages it may do to older engines; they may insinuate that something has been done to compensate for the loss of lubricants, but I am not going to count on it.
 

jimraelee

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Also the sulfur being taken out is a good thing, from an environmental, health, and engine health perspective, since sulfur contributes to oil breakdown, and acidification and thus acid attack on the bearings. Its not the sulfur we're missing, its the lubricity of the D2 that is lost in the process. Some biodiesel, SVO or a good fuel additive will solve that, but I'm not so sure there's anyway to avoid the potential seal problems.
Yea removing chems in the enviorment is a good thing, but as humans are we going to keep removing everything until we are as healthy as living in the bubble... (boy in the bubble movie)??? Weather its the lubricity or the sulfur, its going to have an effect on our vehicles... With the constant buying of used cars, and not promoting the governments new car/truck clean emissions, is this there (govt) way of getting us to conform to new vehicles standards ie forced to spend hundreds or thousands on engine upgrades or just buy new improved cars/trucks that meet there mandated standards???
In an attempt to combat the wear and tear on things, in summer, I add either one 15-oz bottle of STP engine-oil-additive, or one gallon filtered used oil, to each twenty gallons of diesel.

Starting in late fall, I quit the STP/used-oil, and begin adding 8-ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil and 12-ounces of white-bottle Power-Service to each twenty gallons of diesel.
good to know I guess I will have to do the same
Remember the good old Regular and Premium LEADED gas days ??

When the government made the refineries take the lead out of gas, they made NO provision for older leaded-gas engines; the engine designers had to find metals that could hold up to the lack of lead in the gas; try running an older leaded-gas engine on un-leaded-gas and see how many miles you get before the valve seats/stems erode away...
Why yes I do remember regular gas.... and yes we lost the lubricity for the valve seats. I haven't torn down my 75 int scout engine to see what damage has occurred, not that there is none, but I don't really know too many that have. I guess a chat with some local shops (mostly older rigs in our farm country) and see what kind of repairs there coming across.

thanks all for the explination. I guess they can't pull the sulfu out of SVO/WVO :thumbsup:
 

benwill1

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Why yes I do remember regular gas.... and yes we lost the lubricity for the valve seats. I haven't torn down my 75 int scout engine to see what damage has occurred, not that there is none, but I don't really know too many that have. I guess a chat with some local shops (mostly older rigs in our farm country) and see what kind of repairs there coming across.

You don't see much problem in the gas engine valve seats in everyday cars and trucks. Mostly engines that are under constant load, race, and boat engines. There are some engine worse than others. Enough of that here.
 

ttman4

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Like MidnightRider said about them not giong to trouble to chg each batch/load or have 2 storages....that's right.
I suspect that it's pretty well all same most of time. When you think about it, it's lot easier for them to prod. one kind, then dye part of it. There's probably hi sulpher red floating round out there, but not all time. It may be red, but always hi sulphur.
I also suspect that on local level, all fuel isn't the same everytime when it comes to Cetane level. Just like Reg & Super gas, there is different grades of Diesel....it's just got to fall within spec. allowed by law. I can't say what those specs are...seems like in US it something between Cetane Level 44 thru 50???? I don't remember.

Been a while since I filled at station, but I do notice differences between one fill-up & another, at same station.
I just go with the belief that none of it is any good, so pour the additives & goodies to it....slick it up & make 'er SMOKE!!!!
That's my story......
 

tonkadoctor

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Here are the facts ladies and gentlemen.
  1. Sulpher is NOT a lubricant
  2. Sulpher is NOT a lubricant
  3. Sulpher is NOT a lubricant
  4. Sulpher is NOT good for diesel engines
  5. It's the process of removing the sulpher that makes the fuel "dry" not the removal of the sulpher itself.
  6. ULSD has to conform to ASTM D-975 specifications and lubricity is tested in this spec with ASTM test # D-6079
  7. Lubricants and other additives are added to the fuel so it conforms to ASTM D-975 specifications for ULSD
  8. Problems with lubricity stemmed from when LSD was made and lubricity wasn't tested years ago creating problems and costing alot of people big $$$ so now everytime they mention removing sulpher everybody panics.
  9. I retired from the Army as a Petroleum Laboratory Technician
  10. I'm done here in this thread
 

Whit

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I worked for FlyingJ for a couple years and I know how well the additive packge is added .......dont count on nuttin



the refining process of removing the sulpher also removes the lubricating properties of the fuel ..cant help it they go together

best to protect yerself and yer diesel motor by adding yer own additive to insure its values
 

RLDSL

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The big problem with the new fuel is seals. It's such a problem that Chevron had a bullitin up on their website ( which I managed to loose ) but basically they admitted that the new fuel was causing pump seal leaks left and right, but it is only on pumps that have already been run on the older fuel, the change in chemicals is causing seals to sprout leaks, but on new pumps, or pumps rebuilt with new seals that have not been run on the older fuel, seal leaks are not a problem.

So far I haven't seen any leaks...yet, but the stuff sure doesn't have as much power as the older fuel. I've always kind of wondered how a fuel that produces less emissions, really does, when you consider that you have to burn more of it to get from point A to point B

I remember the switch from regular leaded gas only too well, owning a high performance car and motorcycle at the time meant mixing 2 stroke oil in with every tank to keep from pinging the engine to death

---Robert
 

Whit

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2 stroke oil is a wonderful additive for our diesels....its ashless so it burns clean.

yes the new ULSD has proven to be ******* the seals.............(Rubber components) of our fuel systems..here is my take on why....as said above the process of removing the sulpher also is know to take the lubricating properties with it and this leaves the ULSD very dry kinna like you would find in a thinner or a solvent...........and we cant rely on the fuel suppliers to add the additives (been there done that)...............anyway this ULSD is working on the o-rings and such and causing blistering in regular bunna rubber

If you can when you do any o-ring work fuel related try to get VITON G or KALREZ ......its out there and available
 

Diesel JD

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Chevron bulletin was posted about the seals at their pumps last fall when we started seeing the new ULSD. I also make some statements based on that bulletin because it makes sense. The sulfur is not good but its removal changes the fuel and not for the better.
 

Agnem

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My big problem with this whole deal is they lowered the energy level in the fuel so you need more of it. What good does it do the environment to reduce one element of emissions, while at the same time jacking up the amount of it that is going to be produced. :dunno This *** for tat crap is pointless. -cuss
 

LA350

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Here are the facts ladies and gentlemen.
  1. Sulpher is NOT a lubricant
  2. Sulpher is NOT a lubricant
  3. Sulpher is NOT a lubricant
  4. Sulpher is NOT good for diesel engines
  5. It's the process of removing the sulpher that makes the fuel "dry" not the removal of the sulpher itself.
  6. ULSD has to conform to ASTM D-975 specifications and lubricity is tested in this spec with ASTM test # D-6079
  7. Lubricants and other additives are added to the fuel so it conforms to ASTM D-975 specifications for ULSD
  8. Problems with lubricity stemmed from when LSD was made and lubricity wasn't tested years ago creating problems and costing alot of people big $$$ so now everytime they mention removing sulpher everybody panics.
  9. I retired from the Army as a Petroleum Laboratory Technician
  10. I'm done here in this thread

I am a 77L/92L myself :thumbsup:
 

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