Hood insulation

Fixnstuff

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My '89 never had it. Can't even see where the clips would go.

LMC Truck has a hood insulation kit, (link below). Quite expensive for my low income. This kit is not pre-molded to conform to the hood shapes like the original. Instead, they use (what appears to be) foam backing to fill the recessed areas and then covered by a somewhat flat piece of insulation. That extra foam would provide better sound insulation but I couldn't afford the kit myself at this time.

I would look for a pre-molded one in a wrecking yard and buy new clips.

http://www.lmctruck.com/icatalog/fd/full.aspx?Page=90
 

Fixnstuff

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First, The LMC page indicates that the hood insulation is different between 80-86, 87-91 and 92-96 otherwise apparently the same for gas or diesel, so if you get one from a wrecking yard make sure it's the right year.

I was at a local wrecking yard yesterday, window-shopping in the rain for a power steering pump bracket to replace mine (broken ear at the 1/2" drive tensioner hole and I'm installing a re-manufactured P/S pump with an internal magnetic filter - A-1 Cardone from Rock Auto). I was surprised to find that a lot of the gassers use the same bracket. ($20. at this junkyard).

Looking at an 87 6.9L like mine, the insulation was mostly lying on top of the engine. I was a bit surprised to see how thin it was, seemed thinner than mine but it's been soaking in the rain for probably 2+ years which might do that. It would seem that there is not much resistance (R-factor) to heat transfer, but how much is not much?

It might interest you to know that 85% of heat transfer through insulation is resisted by the first R-5, in resistance value which is equal to 1 inch of extruded polystyrene (has smooth surface) bead-board (expanded polystyrene) is R-3.5/inch. Beyond that - diminishing returns as more insulation is added but in a conditioned space like a home it's worth it- high energy costs and low insulation costs the extra insulation pays for itself eventually.

I did a quick estimate of the R-value of this hood insulation and came up with less than R-1 which is probably enough to help prevent damage to paint from engine heat. I also noticed what appears to be a vapor barrier layer sandwiched in the middle which would also help prevent condensation under the hood - to person in Oregon - this would happen not during 'warming up' but during several hours of the engine compartment cooling down in wet cool weather- more-so at night with colder outdoor temps. In very cold winter climates the air is usually very dry and holds much less moisture even during higher "relative humidity." How much condensation or whether or not it's a concern is a toss-up but I would rather not have any condensation.

As for acoustic (noise) insulation that is also not much but significant. The engine fire scenario is making a lot of sense - as well as protecting the hood from fire damage. I'll remember that if/when I encounter someone with a fire under the hood and pull it down to help put out the fire, unless it's a bad fire.
 

79jasper

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So far as "protecting the paint" let's just do to guesstimation scenarios.
Engine temp= let's just say 220°F or so.
Now how hot will the hood get with the engine cold and just baking in the sun?

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The Warden

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So far as "protecting the paint" let's just do to guesstimation scenarios.
Engine temp= let's just say 220°F or so.
Now how hot will the hood get with the engine cold and just baking in the sun?
You make a good point, but there's something else to consider. The engine block/cooling system is "only" getting that warm, yes...but, the exhaust manifolds and the exhaust side of the turbo can get considerably hotter than that. Granted, the exhaust manifolds are low enough that that may be a non-issue on a V engine (I'm sure there's some heat differential, but I don't know nearly enough about thermodynamics to even venture a guess either way as to how much heat actually makes it from the manifolds to the hood). but the turbo is much closer to the hood...and, the example I mentioned earlier was on an inline engine.

Just some food for thought :angel:
 

snicklas

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I would venture to guess it is for possible fire suppression and for heat protection from the engine.

We had an 83 F-150 with the 351-M Gas engine. So this was a small block gas engine, with an automatic transmission. This truck DID NOT have any insulation under the hood, and when it would rain, or in the winter any mater on the hood would STEAM off the hood. This truck lived its entire life in the North (Illinois) and was stored in the garage. We didn't have any paint damage, but the only time the hood was hot, was when it was being driven, it did not get baked in the sun.

My 03 Excursion, 6.0PSD DOES have the hood insulation. I have not seen water steam off the hood, but the insulation does allow heat through. If the dew has fallen, you can see where the CAC piping and the Turbo are under the hood, because they dry faster. But it does block some, because when it snows and the block heater is plugged in, the only place the snow melts is around the edges where the hood meets the fenders......
 

franklin2

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Tried the different plastic anchors. They didn't work. You need something for those types of anchors to bite into. The thin round hole in the hood will not grab the anchor and keep it from spinning when the screw torque starts going up. So scratch that idea. What I ended up doing is drilling a small hole just a little bit to the side of the original hole, and just screwing the sheetmetal screw directly into the brace under the hood. Works fine that way. I did find some metal fender washers at lowes also.
 

79jasper

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Yeah mine would steam it off, but that was when I wasn't running the fan + the 205 stat.

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Fixnstuff

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So far as "protecting the paint" let's just do to guesstimation scenarios.
Engine temp= let's just say 220°F or so.
Now how hot will the hood get with the engine cold and just baking in the sun?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

With black paint on a sunny hot day like 95-100 deg. F the black surface of the hood can get from 140 to 160 deg. F. possibly more, basing that on my recollections of temperatures of smooth black asphalt on a hot sunny day. It's not so much the heat from the sun that damages paint, it's the ultraviolet rays that can break down some of the chemical chains or molecules in the paint and cause it to oxidize from weather more rapidly, (water oxidizes paint as does atmosphere). I'm not sure what happens with the clear coat (if it has a clear coat) or the properties of the clear coat and what damage it might sustain from 'baking in the sun' along with other external factors. Eventually as with paint it will oxidize from weather, fade as surface molecules are lost to the weather. I think that IF there is moisture underneath or scratches that will allow moisture to get below it the coating might peel from heat cycles (baking in the sun as you put it in contrast to cooling at night) Those are significant temperature cycles which are a form of stress on the integrity of the paint/clear coat.

As far as engine heat? The exhaust can be pushing about 1,500 deg. F and manifolds can get that hot. In fact, as I recall 1500 deg. F is the lower critical temperature of iron, the point where iron becomes workable (the grains begin to slip against each other) allowing it to begin to be worked by bending, hammering etc. This is also where you want to preheat cast iron before welding it (pre-heat to dull cherry red) then after welding peen it while it cools to relieve shrinkage stresses. If you don't pre-heat and peen the weld it will not hold up- the shrinkage stresses will make the weld area brittle and it will break. Brazing is good for some repairs and easier to do. Iron melts at about 2600 deg. F. (all stuff I remember from 35+ years ago).

Check out this manifold approaching 1560 deg.F on this small turbo diesel on a dyno running biodiesel fuel. (esp. near end of video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4X9DJAcVMo

Anyhow, the cast iron exhaust manifolds are thick, conducting a lot of heat from the exhaust and dissipating it so you might not see them turn a dull cherry red on the outside, if/when they ever get that hot on the outside. Suffice it to say they are very hot while doing hard work. 220 deg F. on a temp gauge is the temperature of the coolant, most of which is being conducted from metals around the combustion chambers including the heads while most of the combustion heat is exhausted to be further dissipated until it leaves the exhaust pipe. I'm sure you all know this already, it's 3:15 AM here, I'm very tired and just typing in auto-pilot mode, sometimes I get in a half dream state and wander off topics (bad habit/insomnia)

When exhaust manifolds are very hot and the truck is shut down, what happens then? No more air flow from truck moving, nor from fan etc. to move heat from the engine compartment. The heat radiates out from the manifolds (and engine) heating the air which then rises straight up. I don't know how hot the engine compartment can get but I'd say it can get very uncomfortably warm in there.

Can it affect paint on the hood? I don't know for certain but over a long period of time, cycling from hot to cold it could. I do believe I've actually seen evidence of that on a number of occasions. Paint jobs were not all created equal over the years either. There would be some expansion and contraction of the steel from heat/cold which could, along with other factors mentioned in this topic (or not mentioned like dirt and dust and being blasted by it while driving and tree sap is another good one- pollen might be acidic- I don't know) all contributing to affect the paint eventually- I'm just looking at technical considerations even small ones that could affect the paint.
 

Fixnstuff

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>We had an 83 F-150 with the 351-M Gas engine. So this was a small block gas engine, with an automatic transmission. This truck DID NOT have any insulation under the hood, and when it would rain, or in the winter any mater on the hood would STEAM off the hood.<

Very interesting, snicklas, how could I have forgotten that? Hoods steaming when wet. That would increase oxidation and I have seen oxidized paint which was most likely related to that. This may depend upon the paint, quality of it, age, clear coated or not. Sun fading and sun related oxidation looks a bit different. A well trained and experienced painter might have answers to a lot of these paint questions.


My 03 Excursion, 6.0PSD DOES have the hood insulation. I have not seen water steam off the hood, but the insulation does allow heat through. If the dew has fallen, you can see where the CAC piping and the Turbo are under the hood, because they dry faster. But it does block some, because when it snows and the block heater is plugged in, the only place the snow melts is around the edges where the hood meets the fenders......

More interesting observations! Thanks!

After 4:00 AM here and time for me to shut this computer down and get some sleep.
 

Fixnstuff

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Tried the different plastic anchors. They didn't work. You need something for those types of anchors to bite into. The thin round hole in the hood will not grab the anchor and keep it from spinning when the screw torque starts going up. So scratch that idea. What I ended up doing is drilling a small hole just a little bit to the side of the original hole, and just screwing the sheetmetal screw directly into the brace under the hood. Works fine that way. I did find some metal fender washers at lowes also.

Sorry to hear that didn't work, Franklin2, but glad you got it fixed. I had meant to suggest that you save the receipt for those anchors in case it didn't work but I forgot to.
 

rhkcommander

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lowes and home depot both sell plastic clips that *look* like they could fit, in the hardware isle. Ace hardware too. At least in my parts :dunno
 

Fixnstuff

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lowes and home depot both sell plastic clips that *look* like they could fit, in the hardware isle. Ace hardware too. At least in my parts :dunno

Thanks, worth checking out. I'll take an old one in to compare.

I realized that I don't need any clips, except for a few spares because I'm swapping the whole hood with a newer one (that doesn't have a small dent about 8 inches out from the passenger corner) and it has intact insulation and clips. I'll be giving the existing hood with insulation away to whomever might need one/or the other in the greater Seattle area- the dent can be popped out by drilling a hole through the hood frame and pushing the dent out. I didn't want to mess with it.
 

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