Debris found on oil change

[laserjock]

Pretty sure the Motorcraft FL-1995, uses a spring for anti-drainback. 2000 miles on the change (done early to investigate, WMO goes back in as fuel). Oil cooler does have a small leak... but the recovered pieces have small ridges, inconsistent with a rubber o-ring

You are correct. A search showed me that while the FL820S and several other motorcraft filters have red silicon ADB valves, the FL1995 does not. It really does look like a molded plastic part. I'm not real familiar with the internals of this engine but it doesn't look like an umbrella seal I've seen before. Found an umbrella seal keeper in a BBC one time mashed between the oil pump gears. Not where you want to find them. Twisted the cam. Trashed the distributor. Lots of badness. Luckily shut down before any major damage to the rest of the rotating assembly.

I have seen rubber orings mashed into funny shapes before, but I don't think that's what you have here. silicone from inside the pan where it's been off and replaced? Was it hard or rubbery?

 

[BDCarrillo]

The knock has been present ~3000 miles, sound changes with #8 injector. Of course, I took the injector out and cleaned it ultrasonically and slipped in an extra thou shim. Helped a tad.

Drives fine, no bearing material in the oil, and it's known that the stock injectors and pump are due for a change.

Just trying to figure that darn plastic out... may pull a valve cover to check the seal material

 

[The Bus]

Negative on pump leftovers. Previous pump was replaced before this batch of oil. New pump is a happy camper. Also negative on bottle debris, used mobil delvac, which has an internal spout and no "milk ring"

Random dang plastic... I remember finding some in a 351C... timing gear had plastic over each steel tooth. Funky setup.

Still no luck ID'ing the plastic bits when compared to a torn down scrap motor.

Not trying to diagnose the knock on this thread... focus is on the plastic.

Chuffing valve blowby could have cooked the seal, seems like the most probable explanation for the bits so far. Experience with SBFs and Clevelands tells me that valve seals look like rubber umbrellas... but the recovered bits don't match this profile. I'm totally open to any speculation.

They used to coat the cam gear in Neoprene so that the chain would not be as noisy. The neoprene would get brittle around 100K and you would be pulling the front off the engine.

I can't think of anything off hand on a diesel that has a neoprene coating on it.

 

[Hydro-idi]

The knock has been present ~3000 miles, sound changes with #8 injector. Of course, I took the injector out and cleaned it ultrasonically and slipped in an extra thou shim. Helped a tad.

Drives fine, no bearing material in the oil, and it's known that the stock injectors and pump are due for a change.

Just trying to figure that darn plastic out... may pull a valve cover to check the seal material

Hmm well this may be the answer. Sounds you have pinpointed the problem. Try replacing that injector, or all injectors at the same time and that may clear up your engine knock. And yes, if IP and injectors are the stockers, your fuel system needs to be freshened up. I can almost guarantee that is where the knocking is coming from. I am guessing that injector is sticking open and delivering fuel....and probably too much of it at the wrong time.

 

[jay22day]

The knock has been present ~3000 miles, sound changes with #8 injector. Of course, I took the injector out and cleaned it ultrasonically and slipped in an extra thou shim. Helped a tad.

Drives fine, no bearing material in the oil, and it's known that the stock injectors and pump are due for a change.

Just trying to figure that darn plastic out... may pull a valve cover to check the seal material

so are you saying that you rebuilt the injector? i ask becuase you said you shimmed it. did you pop test it or switch it with another cyclinder to make absolutely sure its not the injector?

if it didnt smoke i absolutely dont believe it can be an injector (this is personal oppinion, maybe someone knows something im missing)

can you give a little more history on the truck? how long youve owned it, things youve done to it, miles that are on it.


did you or someone do a valve cover and drop something in it? im just thowing out randoms becuase as i shuffle through images of engine internals (and i know engines well) i cant identify with plastic pieces..... i would pull the valve covers just to take a look at how the engine has been treated though its life. Does anyone know if theres any plastic on the underside of the valve cover? to hard to be gasket material?

 

[BDCarrillo]

I'm on board with the "knock" being fuel delivery related, and plan to freshen up the IP and injectors on the '92. It's been pn the to-do list, but I need to get the 'stang back up first.

Still baffled by the plastic...

 

[jay22day]

I can almost guarantee that is where the knocking is coming from. I am guessing that injector is sticking open and delivering fuel....and probably too much of it at the wrong time.

it would be smoking.....

 

[BDCarrillo]

so are you saying that you rebuilt the injector? i ask becuase you said you shimmed it. did you pop test it or switch it with another cyclinder to make absolutely sure its not the injector?

if it didnt smoke i absolutely dont believe it can be an injector (this is personal oppinion, maybe someone knows something im missing)

can you give a little more history on the truck? how long youve owned it, things youve done to it, miles that are on it.


did you or someone do a valve cover and drop something in it? im just thowing out randoms becuase as i shuffle through images of engine internals (and i know engines well) i cant identify with plastic pieces..... i would pull the valve covers just to take a look at how the engine has been treated though its life. Does anyone know if theres any plastic on the underside of the valve cover? to hard to be gasket material?

Rebuilt without a pop test, attitude towards that engine is "f-it". Zero smoke, except a puff on cold start, all normal maintenance and no aftermarket goodies. ~160K on the clock, had it for about 8k. I changed out the valve cover gaskets when I got it, no observed debris fell in. Even if something did fall in, it'd have to be a plastic part from the truck. It absolutely isn't expanded steel, graphite, or pressed paper gasket material.

I'm not a stranger to engine basics, but finding plastic in the oil pan of a diesel is new to me.

 

[Hydro-idi]

it would be smoking.....

Not necessarily. I have come across a couple diesels with an injector knock that did not have a visible increase in exhaust smoke. I will say, however, that MOST injector knock symptoms will include an increase in emissions.

 

[Black dawg]

it would be smoking.....

if an injector pops earlier than the rest, it will knock with no smoke. Also if the rest are *******, and one is real good, that cylinder will knock with no smoke

 

[jay22day]

Even though i dont think its an injector I would switch the injector with one that is known to be working properly, see if the noise follows. just to make sure, maybe someone did gaskets on the valve covers before you and dropped something (kind of a long shot)

If the injector isnt it you know the engine has premature failure and at that point you might as well drive it till it dies or take it out right now and rebuild. it shouldnt be failing at 160,000 and if your loosing bearing tolerance at 160,000 a piece of plastic is the least of your worries

 

[jay22day]

if an injector pops earlier than the rest, it will knock with no smoke. Also if the rest are *******, and one is real good, that cylinder will knock with no smoke

pop timing is based on when the injection pump fires that line so what would make it pop "early"?

Also if the rest are *******, and one is real good, that cylinder will knock with no smoke

what do you mean by thaT? if 7 are ******* the one that isnt ******* will knock? that doesnt even make sense to me?

If 7 are ******* they will be knocking or smoking

 

[Black dawg]

pump pushes fuel to the injector, the injector pops when the spring in it is overcome by the fuel pressure lifting the pintle. When that injector fires early, it creates a knock.

If you have (for example) 7 injectors that atomize poorly (*******, not drippers or leakers) the ignition lag on these cylinders is longer and burn time is longer (quieter, smoother). One injector that works correctly has less ignition lag, and shorter more violent combustion, and can sound like a knock.

Doesnt have to be these examples either, any combo of mismatched junk can make them sound like crap.

These injectors can atomize pretty poorly, and still not smoke (especially warmed up), I imagine it is pretty windy in the pre chamber

 

[icanfixall]

An injector that has a weak spring pops open early causing a fuel knock. Now for any material going thru the oil pump thats just not going to happen. We have a screened oil suction head. For something going thru the filter breaking up thats not possible either. The oil supply from the filter goes directly to the main oil galley. So those pieces can't have gone thru the oil system. They came from the lift pump, the oil refills or the valve seals. I can't see the valley pan gromit being made of any material that looks like this.

 

[bbjordan]

We have a winner!

icanfixall called it first in post # 10. Does this look familiar?

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The fact that you are finding that in the oil pan is somewhat disturbing. It got crushed for some reason, and I can't think of a good one. Normally, these umbrellas are somewhat flexible. So, if you are finding hard plastic parts, they were probably brittle. Heat is the number one cause of this kind of embrittlement. Need I ask if the engine has ever been overheated in its life?

It is time to rebuilt the engine. You could run it for many thousand more miles, but you run the risk of catastrophic failure. If that happens, the engine will probably not be rebuildable.

Consider yourself lucky you spotted one of the early warning signs of engine failure.

Luck has a way of favouring the prepared mind.