ZeroGee
Registered User
Hello! First time poster here, but I've used this forum over the years to get this truck going. Luckily, up to this point I haven't really had any engine issues.
I have an older Banks IDI Gen 1 non-wastegated turbo that I just mounted to a 1990 F-Super Duty Custom, Standard Cab 2WD with a 13' flatbed with a 5.13 rear end. (Screaming down the highway at 3000RPM, I know. The idea was to turbo it and then reduce the ratio once more power was available.).
The story:
Pre-installation:
The turbo had no axial play, and minimal but detectable radial play. There wasn't a lot of play so I didn't measure, but if I had to guess it'd be around 20 thou. The kit is a mish-mash of Gen 1 and Gen 2 parts. The Gen 2 intake hat was adapted by the original owner for the Gen 1 turbo setup.
I'm led to believe the turbo was good, as I also got a hold of both the guy who owned the truck it was pulled from before he sold the truck, and the guy who pulled the kit from the truck that ended up selling the kit to the guy I bought it from. Maybe 3 people are pulling my leg, but at a minimum I doubt the guy that sold the truck originally would knowingly deceive me as I also bought two good ZF5s from him in a separate transaction. He stated he had 30k miles on the turbo.
Pre-installation engine characteristics:
The engine had no noticeable compression issues during driving, and it started easily every time. It maybe could have done for a fuel check valve, but it only affected me by forcing me to hold the starter for a few more seconds after sitting for a few weeks. The engine produced some black smoke under chassis only loading at above 80% throttle around 2000RPM. New injectors were installed less than 100 miles ago due to a leaky injector for cylinder #8. I drove it to the point it felt better than before and I considered the lines bled.
I freshly changed my oil and coolant in preparation of the turbo install. At the time, I notice a microfilm of something, potentially oil, over the coolant in the radiator I figured to be due to the gunk brought loose from the coolant detergent/flush I added in preparation of the coolant change. Turns out it was actually oil cooler seals. More about this below. At the time there was little to no perceivable blow-by through the oil fill, and virtually no blow-by through the oil dipstick. Other than that, the motor seemed to be fine.
Sensors installed:
I happened to have a Banks Ottomind with gauges and thermocouple for a Cummins 24V. I worked with Banks to determine what would be needed to use the gauges with the system and integrated it accordingly. After confirming the gauge readouts for pressure and temperature worked outside of the system, I tapped the pressure sensor treads in the Gen 2 intake hat to accept a Cummins 24V MAP sensor that I machined down to 7/16-20, and used a 1/4" NPT to 1/8" NPT bushing for the thermocouple. I had to tap the bushing a little further with a 1/8" NPT tap so that the end of the thermocouple was at least in the middle third of the exhaust flange.
Installation:
I used the gen 2 oil inlet block and drain pipe, since it is a cleaner system with fewer points for failure. I realized I did not punch holes in the valley drain pan. I will do this during the reinstall.
I didn't turn up the IP as I just wanted to get it installed, and see if it cleaned up the burn. I primed the oil lines, and ran some through the turbo without reconnecting the IP before starting. I let it warm up at idle before driving it while inspecting for leaks. I verified there were no leaks in the oil lines or other locations via progressively longer test drives and inspections, after going down the driveway, neighborhood, block, highway exit, etc. Increasing max throttle and engine load each iteration.
The exhaust is straight 3" piped about 12' from the turbo downpipe to the tailpipe. A new CDR is installed on the side of the intake up, and connected to the case via the injection pump gear cover adapter using 1" ID heater hose. I installed a middle-of-the-line turbo blanket cover over the turbine housing, and wrapped the Y pipe and uptube in DEI Titanium exhaust wrap.
Installation was completed, with the most difficult parts being shaping the firewall joining seams, and passenger side floor heat shields to allow both the turbine up and downpipes. The second most difficult part would be mounting the up pipe to the turbine inlet flange. I happened to receive the turbo mounted to the pedestal and installed it that way.
Post installation, pre failure:
Idle EGTs were around 350F.
I did notice some increase in power, especially above 2000RPM and at highway cruising RPM around 3000RPM at 70MPH, but it was blowing more black smoke at relatively lower throttle positions at lower RPM compared to pre-turbo. At this point I assume the turbo was acting as somewhat of an air restriction due to the leaky exhaust connections mentioned below.
Something I noticed is that when there was a sudden throttle decrease above 2000 RPM, say to change gears, it resulted in an exhaust note that almost sounded like an engine brake, or barking noise of about 5-10 cylinder cycles.
My Y pipe exhaust connections were not the best. I only saw about 2.5psi of boost max starting around 2000 RPM at full throttle, with lots of black smoke, most likely due to the leaky exhaust. I never saw EGTs above 850F during the testing, but I wasn't loaded more than chassis load and some tools.
Post failure:
The turbo started leaking oil internally after 15 miles or so, leaking oil into the intake and causing massive power loss, and blue smoke. It's probably leaking into the compressor housing too.
The valley drain grommet does not seem to be leaking.
I didn't realize it at the time of installation, but my oil cooler seals were bad, and even the minor boost seemed to exacerbate the issue. A pretty good amount of oil is in the coolant. It doesn't seem like I've got coolant in the oil, though.
One of the larger issues that concerns me is that I have considerable blow by now. Once the engine is warm, it has active blowby through the dip stick, and considerable blow by from the oil filler. Like, a foot high with the fan on. It seems now that I have oil leaking from the exhaust manifold at cylinder #2 and #8, with a slight puffing noise indicating that the gasket might be leaky now.
Current plan:
Test blowby severity using a variety of methods to determine if I need to rebuild. I'm going to stud it while I have it out, if this were the case.
Replace exhaust manifold gaskets.
Replace oil cooler seals.
Once the motor is running well without the turbo I'll rebuild the turbo, or have it sent off to be rebuilt and upgraded if possible.
Make sure the Y pipe and uptube flared connections are seated better. Rookie mistake. It was a pain and I didn't figure I'd have much of an issue with them.
Replace air filter. It's a pull from another car I happened to have, just to get things going.
I didn't grab a lot of pictures, but here is a snip before sensor installation and applying heat shielding around the wires running above the turbo, and a snip of the turbo itself. It has a blue and silver stamped metal tag mounted on the compressor housing facing the turbine housing.
The questions:
Is there anything I did wrong here? I'm all ears. My gut is telling me that there was something I did during the install, or some characteristic of the engine's operating condition led to the demise of this turbo, and maybe my rings?
What is the best way to determine the severity of the blowby?
Where can a rebuild kit be found for this turbo? Are there some shops or individuals still rebuilding these turbos? I'm writing this while I'm out of state for a week for work, and I can provide further identifying information later, though I feel like I can recall a lot of external characteristics of the turbo to assist in identifying it now.
What might be some suggested alternative plans moving forward?
Thank you in advance for any information or advice anyone can provide. It really is greatly appreciated.
I have an older Banks IDI Gen 1 non-wastegated turbo that I just mounted to a 1990 F-Super Duty Custom, Standard Cab 2WD with a 13' flatbed with a 5.13 rear end. (Screaming down the highway at 3000RPM, I know. The idea was to turbo it and then reduce the ratio once more power was available.).
The story:
Pre-installation:
The turbo had no axial play, and minimal but detectable radial play. There wasn't a lot of play so I didn't measure, but if I had to guess it'd be around 20 thou. The kit is a mish-mash of Gen 1 and Gen 2 parts. The Gen 2 intake hat was adapted by the original owner for the Gen 1 turbo setup.
I'm led to believe the turbo was good, as I also got a hold of both the guy who owned the truck it was pulled from before he sold the truck, and the guy who pulled the kit from the truck that ended up selling the kit to the guy I bought it from. Maybe 3 people are pulling my leg, but at a minimum I doubt the guy that sold the truck originally would knowingly deceive me as I also bought two good ZF5s from him in a separate transaction. He stated he had 30k miles on the turbo.
Pre-installation engine characteristics:
The engine had no noticeable compression issues during driving, and it started easily every time. It maybe could have done for a fuel check valve, but it only affected me by forcing me to hold the starter for a few more seconds after sitting for a few weeks. The engine produced some black smoke under chassis only loading at above 80% throttle around 2000RPM. New injectors were installed less than 100 miles ago due to a leaky injector for cylinder #8. I drove it to the point it felt better than before and I considered the lines bled.
I freshly changed my oil and coolant in preparation of the turbo install. At the time, I notice a microfilm of something, potentially oil, over the coolant in the radiator I figured to be due to the gunk brought loose from the coolant detergent/flush I added in preparation of the coolant change. Turns out it was actually oil cooler seals. More about this below. At the time there was little to no perceivable blow-by through the oil fill, and virtually no blow-by through the oil dipstick. Other than that, the motor seemed to be fine.
Sensors installed:
I happened to have a Banks Ottomind with gauges and thermocouple for a Cummins 24V. I worked with Banks to determine what would be needed to use the gauges with the system and integrated it accordingly. After confirming the gauge readouts for pressure and temperature worked outside of the system, I tapped the pressure sensor treads in the Gen 2 intake hat to accept a Cummins 24V MAP sensor that I machined down to 7/16-20, and used a 1/4" NPT to 1/8" NPT bushing for the thermocouple. I had to tap the bushing a little further with a 1/8" NPT tap so that the end of the thermocouple was at least in the middle third of the exhaust flange.
Installation:
I used the gen 2 oil inlet block and drain pipe, since it is a cleaner system with fewer points for failure. I realized I did not punch holes in the valley drain pan. I will do this during the reinstall.
I didn't turn up the IP as I just wanted to get it installed, and see if it cleaned up the burn. I primed the oil lines, and ran some through the turbo without reconnecting the IP before starting. I let it warm up at idle before driving it while inspecting for leaks. I verified there were no leaks in the oil lines or other locations via progressively longer test drives and inspections, after going down the driveway, neighborhood, block, highway exit, etc. Increasing max throttle and engine load each iteration.
The exhaust is straight 3" piped about 12' from the turbo downpipe to the tailpipe. A new CDR is installed on the side of the intake up, and connected to the case via the injection pump gear cover adapter using 1" ID heater hose. I installed a middle-of-the-line turbo blanket cover over the turbine housing, and wrapped the Y pipe and uptube in DEI Titanium exhaust wrap.
Installation was completed, with the most difficult parts being shaping the firewall joining seams, and passenger side floor heat shields to allow both the turbine up and downpipes. The second most difficult part would be mounting the up pipe to the turbine inlet flange. I happened to receive the turbo mounted to the pedestal and installed it that way.
Post installation, pre failure:
Idle EGTs were around 350F.
I did notice some increase in power, especially above 2000RPM and at highway cruising RPM around 3000RPM at 70MPH, but it was blowing more black smoke at relatively lower throttle positions at lower RPM compared to pre-turbo. At this point I assume the turbo was acting as somewhat of an air restriction due to the leaky exhaust connections mentioned below.
Something I noticed is that when there was a sudden throttle decrease above 2000 RPM, say to change gears, it resulted in an exhaust note that almost sounded like an engine brake, or barking noise of about 5-10 cylinder cycles.
My Y pipe exhaust connections were not the best. I only saw about 2.5psi of boost max starting around 2000 RPM at full throttle, with lots of black smoke, most likely due to the leaky exhaust. I never saw EGTs above 850F during the testing, but I wasn't loaded more than chassis load and some tools.
Post failure:
The turbo started leaking oil internally after 15 miles or so, leaking oil into the intake and causing massive power loss, and blue smoke. It's probably leaking into the compressor housing too.
The valley drain grommet does not seem to be leaking.
I didn't realize it at the time of installation, but my oil cooler seals were bad, and even the minor boost seemed to exacerbate the issue. A pretty good amount of oil is in the coolant. It doesn't seem like I've got coolant in the oil, though.
One of the larger issues that concerns me is that I have considerable blow by now. Once the engine is warm, it has active blowby through the dip stick, and considerable blow by from the oil filler. Like, a foot high with the fan on. It seems now that I have oil leaking from the exhaust manifold at cylinder #2 and #8, with a slight puffing noise indicating that the gasket might be leaky now.
Current plan:
Test blowby severity using a variety of methods to determine if I need to rebuild. I'm going to stud it while I have it out, if this were the case.
Replace exhaust manifold gaskets.
Replace oil cooler seals.
Once the motor is running well without the turbo I'll rebuild the turbo, or have it sent off to be rebuilt and upgraded if possible.
Make sure the Y pipe and uptube flared connections are seated better. Rookie mistake. It was a pain and I didn't figure I'd have much of an issue with them.
Replace air filter. It's a pull from another car I happened to have, just to get things going.
I didn't grab a lot of pictures, but here is a snip before sensor installation and applying heat shielding around the wires running above the turbo, and a snip of the turbo itself. It has a blue and silver stamped metal tag mounted on the compressor housing facing the turbine housing.
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The questions:
Is there anything I did wrong here? I'm all ears. My gut is telling me that there was something I did during the install, or some characteristic of the engine's operating condition led to the demise of this turbo, and maybe my rings?
What is the best way to determine the severity of the blowby?
Where can a rebuild kit be found for this turbo? Are there some shops or individuals still rebuilding these turbos? I'm writing this while I'm out of state for a week for work, and I can provide further identifying information later, though I feel like I can recall a lot of external characteristics of the turbo to assist in identifying it now.
What might be some suggested alternative plans moving forward?
Thank you in advance for any information or advice anyone can provide. It really is greatly appreciated.
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