Yep!
I see that they are loading the bottles a little more now!!!
That's good!!!
I see that they are loading the bottles a little more now!!!
That's good!!!
AC Evaporator? What's the difference between pre-94 & 94-up?
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CDX825
filtration nut
Looks to me as if the envirosafe is just refrigerant grade propane or R290
Hmm, that's very interesting... What's R-290, or did you come to that from dissecting it's molecular structure, like they do to get the R designations for the other refrigerants?
I don't know how to do that designation math thing, but just in case you worked that out, you should know that there is a little benzene or something added to the propane to enable it to carry the oil throughout the system...
CDX825
filtration nut
Ive done some reading previously on propane being used as a refrigerant. There is a refrigerant grade propane, its much cleaner than the stuff you barbeque with. The industry name for it is R290
Sadly it is illegal in the US. Witch figures because it sounds like it works good.
Sadly it is illegal in the US. Witch figures because it sounds like it works good.
itsacrazyasian
residentcrazyasian
Propane is a refrigerant. What you use in your BBQ has a chemical odor added to it to alert users of a leak. Refrigerant grade does not. The Mercaptan contains sulfur which is what you smell. It also reacts with moisture to create an acid. Not good for a hvac system. R290 is not actually illegal. Its legal for retrofit use on CFC based industrial cooling systems. It is banned for residential and mobile use. Blends are legal however.
I've converted many old R12 freezers to R290. one of them was a drive in food warehouse with huge drive in freezers and coolers. PITA to work on but that was a past life. Thats where i learned about R290 and propane. the industrial 12A works well enough for me that while its not as cheap as bbq propane, i dont worry about it contaminating my system. the industrial 12A and other R290 is highly refined to be refrigerants.
I've converted many old R12 freezers to R290. one of them was a drive in food warehouse with huge drive in freezers and coolers. PITA to work on but that was a past life. Thats where i learned about R290 and propane. the industrial 12A works well enough for me that while its not as cheap as bbq propane, i dont worry about it contaminating my system. the industrial 12A and other R290 is highly refined to be refrigerants.
Then you would be the perfect person to ask...
Which oil is preferred to use with the Industrial ES-12? It sounds like the Industrial ES-12 might not have any benzene mixed with it to help carry the oil throughout the system... Most propane blends are usually a 60/40 blend for two reasons... To carry the oil and to be DOT certified for ground shipping.
As I mentioned earlier, I am going to flush my system and refill with Industrial ES-12 and was going to use PAG, but I'd rather use mineral oil or ester oil, if that's the better choice...
I just want to be able to use the stuff without killing my compressor, I hate black death, got it once before and replaced EVERYTHING behind the firewall and in front of the firewall... Pita... Gotta have good oil circulation...
Thanks for your reply...
itsacrazyasian
residentcrazyasian
Ok theres a few things i will warn you when using the industrial 12A. The gauge they give you with the large container (30lb)? Throw it away. It leaks. I kept smelling PINE! 2nd, charge by weight. Using this stuff basically turns the HVAC unit into a Critical Charge system like much of the newer cars. Ever put 1lb of R134a in a new honda that calls for 14oz? It won't cool. Same with this stuff. I overcharged the first time and it wouldn't cool.
I had a long convo with the people at Envirosafe when i was looking for a colder R134A alternative. I personally hate R134A in these trucks. Dealt with black death in many Ford vehicles. I flushed the crap out of my condenser and hoses. The drier and evap were new since i had to replace with the older standard thread stuff vs my metric evaporator. Don't use a VOV orfice. Use the stock R12 one. As far as oil, they claim it will interchange with any oil, mineral, ester or pag.
let me back up here for a minute and give you a quick rundown of the lubricants.
PAG molecules, open ended are very chemically active. When looking for a quality PAG oil, make sure the bottle says DOUBLE END CAPPED. Which means the molecule is processed to be chemically, thermally and hydrolytically stable. Most PAGS will absorb moisture very quickly when introduced in a system during a repair without a proper deep/long vacuum to boil out the moisture. Ester molecules are comprised of organic acids and alcohol as their base. Ester is far more tolerant of moisture than PAG oils are BUT, when exposed to high levels of moisture and HEAT. Ester molecules will revert back to their original state... A acid. Ester oil became the oil of choice in retrofit due to its ability to tolerate mineral oil in a existing R12 system and will also mix with PAG. But theres multiple viscosity's of PAG, Ester will not replace all three.
So in my case i chose to drain all the old oil out of the parts truck compressor and refill with PAG oil. PAG 46, but i chose
http://www.ilacorp.biz/pag_oil.htm?utm_source=Worldpac%2BBanner%2Bad&utm_medium=banner&utm_campaign=PAG%2BOil
Because its factory fill in many cars i've never had to change a compressor in and seen system contamination due to lubricant failure. Ever see a new Hyundai? They use the same Ford designed compressors built by HCC or Halla Climate Control. Idemitsu oil is the most moisture resistant lubricant i have seen. Used it in many industrial applications too. They were the ones to pioneer a lubricant for refrigeration systems WITHOUT filter driers.
I refilled the system with oil, pulled light vacuum and recharged. Happy Asian.
itsacrazyasian
residentcrazyasian
One of these days i need to pursue a career in the engineering field.
Please, don't get me started on those supposed *drop in* refrigerants 
If there is the most remote chance that the vehicle might ever get serviced by an AC shop, JUST SAY NO! that crap can end up costing some poor sap thousands of dollars in damage to equipment or hazourdous waste disposal fees.
Whatever kinds of fines you want to risk for yourself, that's your business, but don't ever let a vehicle back into circulation with that garbage in it and don't ever let a shop loose on it. I used to do a lot of AC work and still dabble in it and I get a bit cranky about this.
I can help you get ice cold temps out the ducts with r134a , it's not rocket science My crew cab stays frigid inside front and back on the hottest of days
If there is the most remote chance that the vehicle might ever get serviced by an AC shop, JUST SAY NO! that crap can end up costing some poor sap thousands of dollars in damage to equipment or hazourdous waste disposal fees.Whatever kinds of fines you want to risk for yourself, that's your business, but don't ever let a vehicle back into circulation with that garbage in it and don't ever let a shop loose on it. I used to do a lot of AC work and still dabble in it and I get a bit cranky about this.
I can help you get ice cold temps out the ducts with r134a , it's not rocket science My crew cab stays frigid inside front and back on the hottest of days
Thatguy
Full Access Member
yeah ...... my 16 y/o crew cab with r134a is like a refrigerator..... My 99 Lincoln also stays like a meat locker...... infact they both stay too cold for me to be in when they are on max cold.
itsacrazyasian
residentcrazyasian
Agree with you completely. Especially when i get a machine loaded with stop leak. When you buy this stuff they come with stick on labels in compliance with the EPA just like a R12 to R134A retrofit.
Please don't let this thread turn into a heated discussion, It's been civil and has broadened my education, which is the purpose of this forum and to enjoy each other's company...
Thank you all for making this forum the world's best regarding the IDI trucks...
Thank you all for making this forum the world's best regarding the IDI trucks...
PRoblem with that is stickers fall off and so far, I have yet to see a single one of those blend companies that has complied with manufacturing their own unique charge fittings that would idintify the refrigerant as their own like the law requires. THey are all just pretending that they can use teh r134a fittings, which doesn't even fit into a loophole.
Another little nasty about those dropins. Some of the coldest ones have a very nasty habit of leaking out faster than R134a through non barrier hose . and really need new barrier hose or some fairly recent r12 hose that has been well saturated with mineral oil to keep it in. I've seen a lot of systems that will hold r12 or 134a tight, **** out those blends in a week or so( the record was 3 days on a car that went over 5 years without needing a topoff on 134a )
itsacrazyasian
residentcrazyasian
Well the sticker is still on my truck, its on the evap case. Most of the people who buy this refrigerant use it for themselves. I won't install this on a customers car. I can still buy R12 for that or convert if the customers want.
Ive had no issues with the Envirosafe stuff leaking out. I've used their Industrial stuff in numerous fixed refrigeration applications so i gave my rep a call about a 12 replacement for my old Mercedes. I had been running R134A in it but the head pressures were just too high and i kept eating compressors. I wanted to go back to R12 but at the same time, the system is very large and i didn't want to drop the cash for R12. A friend of mine that works at a Mercedes restoration shop out sent me some Envirosafe to drop in my Merc. It cooled very well and the head pressure stay low which made me happy. Apparently this stuff is popular with the Mercedes mechanics with the diesels as the compressors suck a bunch of power from the car when engaged.
Anyways my Mercedes has stayed fully charged since i did it back in 2005. Stock hoses, ester oil in that car. Dont use the car much but i do start it once a month and let it warm up, the ac always kicks.
This is my personal experience. Others may vary like RLDSL's. Is this the cure all? Probably not. Just worked well in my case as my a/c cools my crew cab off very well. I'm a little curious to see what you did with a rear a/c unit. My friend has a crew cab thats converted on R134a that just isn't cutting it down here. But since that truck doesn't always come to my shop, its not getting 12A or R12 since many many shops around me won't touch the stuff since they don't have R12 recovery equipment (which i still do)
Ive had no issues with the Envirosafe stuff leaking out. I've used their Industrial stuff in numerous fixed refrigeration applications so i gave my rep a call about a 12 replacement for my old Mercedes. I had been running R134A in it but the head pressures were just too high and i kept eating compressors. I wanted to go back to R12 but at the same time, the system is very large and i didn't want to drop the cash for R12. A friend of mine that works at a Mercedes restoration shop out sent me some Envirosafe to drop in my Merc. It cooled very well and the head pressure stay low which made me happy. Apparently this stuff is popular with the Mercedes mechanics with the diesels as the compressors suck a bunch of power from the car when engaged.
Anyways my Mercedes has stayed fully charged since i did it back in 2005. Stock hoses, ester oil in that car. Dont use the car much but i do start it once a month and let it warm up, the ac always kicks.
This is my personal experience. Others may vary like RLDSL's. Is this the cure all? Probably not. Just worked well in my case as my a/c cools my crew cab off very well. I'm a little curious to see what you did with a rear a/c unit. My friend has a crew cab thats converted on R134a that just isn't cutting it down here. But since that truck doesn't always come to my shop, its not getting 12A or R12 since many many shops around me won't touch the stuff since they don't have R12 recovery equipment (which i still do)
When I did mine there is an upgraded condenser, designed for 134 conversions. that was a direct fit for my 91, one of my best friends that has a shop is a good ac tech, his supplier knew about this condenser and it was very cost effective, I have a vov and 134 and it cools awesome, unless I am pulling a big long hill under full boost, then it drops off a bit.
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