Diesel + Hydrogen = WHOooaaa!

MR.T

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And, actually I would say closer to 2 mpg gain than 3 mpg. 'Cause if you average 13 and 14 you get 13.5, and this last tank worked out to 135 miles for 8.5 gallons which comes out to 15.88mpg, minus 13.5 equals 2.38, which isn't really all that fantastic compared to some of the claims you hear in the HHO community. I'll take it for now though, because next on the agenda is....
I'd like to encouage you to be more scientific. I can get <10.0 to 18.5 MPG on mine depending on how I drive and conditions. It's easy to fool yourself.

A reasonable "poor mans" mpg test is to pick a round trip highway route that will come close to emptying at least one tank. Don't pick a city route because there are to many variables, the concept is to have as close to one variable (the HHO device) as possible. Fill the tank at the exact same pump with the truck on the same side of the pump (tank fill changes with the lean of the truck) both at the start and end of the test run. Use cruise control if you have it, and stay at a fixed speed as much as possible. Drive it twice in succession - once with the HHO on and once without.

I'll buy you a virtual beer if you note any significant increase in mpg with the HHO on in a real test like this. EDIT: I'll probably fly to Florida and buy you a real one. Take this challenge and test it for real.

Make an effort to prove it doesn't work, as well as that it does. People tend to see what they want to see - It doesn't matter if it's religion, politics, or mpg. I'm very serious, one can prove almost anything to themselves or willing believers if they only look for evidence that support a claim.
 
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BioFarmer93

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That was pretty much a non-scientific seat of the pants estimate. I promised myself I was NOT going to get caught up in the contentiousness surrounding this subject. Read the earlier posts. When the time comes to do the actual tests, they WILL be done in as scientific a manner as possible with out renting or buying high dollar mega-super-duper test equipment. Until that time back the F off my butt about it. I honestly don't give a tinkers damn about convincing you or anybody else for that matter. Frankly, I just don't feel up to arguing about it. You and everyone else will get the testing results shortly after I do and no amount of coercion, cajoling, innuendo, insults, suggestions that I'll only see what I want to see or statements implying subterfuge is going to make that happen any sooner than I'm ready for it to happen, and it damn sure isn't going to happen until I'm happy with the gas output of the system and confident that I'm not losing any output to the atmosphere. I'm almost to the point where I regret even mentioning it on here. If, when the time comes, it turns out that the results are crap, I will have absolutely no shame in reporting that the results are crap. I'm betting however, that will not be necessary.
 

93turbo_animal

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Ok -- I'll byte. I'm one of those "arm chair physicists" that predict it can't increase MPG for various reasons.

However, I believe experimentation like this can be a good learning experience, both technically and in psychology, even if the device completely fails to increase mileage.

As they say, been there, done that, with a collection of T-shirts. Back in the late '70s I belonged to a club call the "100 MPG club" in California. We'd been through two fuel "crisis" where everyone waited in long lines to buy fuel at high prices. We could only buy fuel every other day based on whether the last digit of your license plate and the date was odd or even (no vanity plates back then). There were seminars at the local college, people with degrees in science and engineering, people that claimed to have seen it, done it, and said it was suppressed by the oil companies, etc. The key element to the "theory" (actually a hypothesis) was better atomization of fuel into a pure gaseous form, as well as a lean mixture will double, triple, or more the MPG. When confronted by the physics of only so many BTU's being available, the answer was that there was something unknown happening -- sort of more energy available then a calorimeter could measure. That's the only explanation since people right there would "testify" that they had seen these great results in there experiments, but there are also a lot of technical details to get it work 100% reliably, and of course more work to get it commercial, then potentially make a ton of money. And if you do get it to work, you could get bought-off (or knocked-off) by big oil.

I'll interrupt the story for a moment to note the similarities to the HHO movement. People "testify" about the successes they've had, it defies the laws of physics, and the explanation is that something unknown is creating more energy then routine physics can explain.

Meanwhile, after buying a lathe and a milling machine, plus access to even more tools, I built the ultimate true vapor carb. It evaporated fuel in a stainless steel boiler located in a custom exhaust manifold, then went to a custom high temp pressure regulator, then to a custom vapor carb that was actually a variable area flowmeter with an air/fuel ratio adjustable from inside the passenger compartment. A regular carb sat under the new carb, using a two way solenoid valve to shift fuel between carbs -- start on the old one, then switch to the new one after exhaust heat starts. I had to leave the hood off, it looked like some type of super charger. Leaving the hood off also provided safety ventilation in case it leaked and ignited -- forgot to mention this was a 1973 Pinto. ;Really

I had to use water injection to control the detonation at high load. It had noticeably crisper throttle response, and I even ran it through one of the smog check stations for an emissions print out. However, preliminary MPG was looking only slightly better then stock, which I finally confirmed on a long freeway round trip. The roughly 10% improvement I saw was the same as fuel injection would give at a much lower cost, etc. About three years of all my spare time wasted, except for all that I learned.

I just wanted to prove I could build it, and also prove whether the "theory" was true or false. The technical stuff learned from this is self evident. But more interesting is that some people just make $hit up to get attention. Others live in self delusion with a shot of incompetence -- they fill up the tank to the top for a test, then yank the nozzle out at the first click on refill, and they only drove a few miles downhill for a test. Some are educated with degrees, some are self taught. Some are true believers, and some are in it for a buck. Some of us are interested in the facts, the truth, and real science, whatever the outcome.

Best of luck. The education can be worth the effort regardless of the outcome.

The thing that gets me is that everyone that says it goes against the law of physics and it will never work are trying to argue that you can't produce enough for fuel with out using more energy then you make. Which is correct but what they never seem to be able to understand is that most are not trying to make enough HHO to run on but just make enough to act like a catalyst and burn more of the fuel making it more efficient.
 

MR.T

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That was pretty much a non-scientific seat of the pants estimate. I promised myself I was NOT going to get caught up in the contentiousness surrounding this subject. Read the earlier posts. When the time comes to do the actual tests, they WILL be done in as scientific a manner as possible with out renting or buying high dollar mega-super-duper test equipment. Until that time back the F off my butt about it. I honestly don't give a tinkers damn about convincing you or anybody else for that matter. Frankly, I just don't feel up to arguing about it. You and everyone else will get the testing results shortly after I do and no amount of coercion, cajoling, innuendo, insults, suggestions that I'll only see what I want to see or statements implying subterfuge is going to make that happen any sooner than I'm ready for it to happen, and it damn sure isn't going to happen until I'm happy with the gas output of the system and confident that I'm not losing any output to the atmosphere. I'm almost to the point where I regret even mentioning it on here. If, when the time comes, it turns out that the results are crap, I will have absolutely no shame in reporting that the results are crap. I'm betting however, that will not be necessary.

I apologize -- it sounded to me like you were already convinced that you had a 2 mpg improvement.

The thing that gets me is that everyone that says it goes against the law of physics and it will never work are trying to argue that you can't produce enough for fuel with out using more energy then you make. Which is correct but what they never seem to be able to understand is that most are not trying to make enough HHO to run on but just make enough to act like a catalyst and burn more of the fuel making it more efficient.

It also might tend to make the burn quicker and just make up for retarded timing. Getting more energy from a catalytic action of H2 then it takes to separate the H2 and O is an extraordinary claim that should have the (extraordinary) evidence to support it. Check out these fuel magnet ads and read the scientific non-sense about how they reduce fuel consumption by up to 20% FuelMax, EcoMag and ProZone. And they've been selling this fuel magnet stuff for longer then most of us have been alive -- so it must be true or people wouldn't keep buying it. cookoo

This electrolysis for better combustion stuff has been going on for years, and tons of talented enthusiastic people have experimented with it (even some acquaintances of mine). I think if it had merit we'd see something in the mainstream aftermarket by now, something tested successfuly by a reputable magazine at least.

Here's a Wikipedia article on the subject of hydrogen fuel enhancement (HHO), also view the footnote links 12 through 15 regarding negative test results.
 

runaway!

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I gotta chime in on this:

The vinegar is key here, it's embodied chemical energy improves the electrolysis and effectively reduces the required electrical energy for the reaction. With enough current, even pure water can be split. Hydrogen is constantly created from lightning, as an example.

It just so happens, vinegar isn't created by hydrocarbons. The result can potentially be a net gain in your wallet.

So effectively, there are potential efficiency gains without breaking the law of thermodynamics. It is just a matter of potential energy and where it comes from. As mentioned by others, further changes to fuel combustion characteristics will also contribute to the perception of change which can be confused with real efficiency improvement.

Personally, I think this is worthy of testing so long as vinegar is a cheap commodity.
 

Agnem

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That was pretty much a non-scientific seat of the pants estimate. I promised myself I was NOT going to get caught up in the contentiousness surrounding this subject.....

Thanks for taking the time to do this experiment and post your comments. Try to keep a thick skin with regard to the skepticism. We all know you were expecting it. Take comfort in the knowledge that others are experimenting with this as well. They just aren't posting about it.
 

seawalkersee

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I have been thinking about this for a while. I think the reason I have waited is because of the draw. I am not sure how much I am going to need to do the split for one. Two, I havent had time.

Now, for the milage. How much water do you use to add the 2 mpgs? If you think about it, if you use 3 gal. of water to gain 2 mpgs, you need to figure that in to it. Also, if you could figure out a way to split the water at a lower amprage, you would get even better milage.

SWS
 

jim x 3

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So let's get this question settled.

@ALL: Well, I've been tying to hold my tongue, but I've gotta chime in as well. Just for the record, here is text from one of my previous posts:
It would be great if this actually works, but my first reaction was that in my previous post - I don't see how the chemistry and physics support the outcome we are hoping for. (And believe me I'd be happy to reduce the amount of diesel fuel I need to buy).

@RUNAWAY:
I gotta chime in on this:
The vinegar is key here, it's embodied chemical energy improves the electrolysis and effectively reduces the required electrical energy for the reaction. With enough current, even pure water can be split. Hydrogen is constantly created from lightning, as an example.

It just so happens, vinegar isn't created by hydrocarbons. The result can potentially be a net gain in your wallet.

So effectively, there are potential efficiency gains without breaking the law of thermodynamics. It is just a matter of potential energy and where it comes from. As mentioned by others, further changes to fuel combustion characteristics will also contribute to the perception of change which can be confused with real efficiency improvement.

Personally, I think this is worthy of testing so long as vinegar is a cheap commodity.
I've gotta call BS here. Your post just adds confusion to this issue. While vinegar (acetic acid) may be used to adjust the pH of the electrochemical system, it doesn't change the fact that at least 237.1 kJoules of energy is required to dissociate 1 mole of water. (And FYI, vinegar (acetic acid) IS a hydrocarbon and it can be created from petroleum. Its chemical formula is CH3COOH.)

@ALL: The definitive measurement that must be made to answer the question of net gain or loss with this HHO system is Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC) on a dynamometer. Biofarmer has told me (privately) that there is a new dyno shop near him. I have asked him to check if they can do BSFC dyno runs. If we do a BSFC run with and without the HHO, with the engine properly timed and tuned, we will have our answer. So if Biofarmer agrees to do the tests, and he finds a dyno shop that knows how, I will pledge $20.00 to Biofarmer (via Paypal) to help defray the cost. (I actually have no idea how expensive these tests would be, but Biofarmer can tell us.) I am asking the rest of you interested in this issue, both pro and con, to pledge as well. Let's get this answered once and for all.

@BIOFARMER: Will you agree to find a dyno and do the tests? How much will they cost?

@ALL: Will you all pledge to help defray the costs of the tests?

Regards,
 

MR.T

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@ALL: Will you all pledge to help defray the costs of the tests?

Good idea, I'm in for $20 (more if needed).

EDIT: Jim: If the dyno shop isn't capable of BSFC, wouldn't fixing the IP throttle position, then turning the device on (and stabilize), then off (and stabilize) and measuring HP at the wheels work well enough?
Stabilization time is probably very important since the battery voltage may tend to run lower in HHO mode. The batteries act like energy storage that is either supplying or demanding power until stabilized.
 
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BioFarmer93

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@ Runaway Vinegar is NOT used as the electrolyte, KOH (potasium hydroxide) is. Vinegar is used in the first bubbler after the eleltrolyzer to help neutralize any KOH in the water vapor suspended in the output gas.

@ Seawalkersee 3 gallons of water is about the total amount consumed in approximately 20-25 hours of operation thus far. I hope this clears up any confusion about water usage vs. mpg.
Amperage varies with size, number and arrangement of plates, type of cell, electrolyte strength and type of electronics used. Also how much in the way of wattage you have available to throw at it. More watts = more gas up to the point where you're making more steam than gas.

@ Jim x 3 I joined Oil Burners to learn about my truck, and share a bit of the camaraderie associated with a bunch of guys that love their old diesels. I did not join to be turned into a spectacle and jeered at. Please excuse me if I do not feel the same sense of urgency that some here may feel. Please understand that I absolutely do NOT feel that it is incumbent upon me to prove anything to anyone. I offered to share what I was doing as a matter of interest to anyone that was curious. I did NOT offer to be a guinea pig, paid for or not. I would appreciate it if you would retract your request to myself and the board at large, and in the future exercise some restraint before :yell: :yell: calling all hands and then pointing at me.
It may come as some surprise, but I actually have a life with lots things going on and work to do and as interesting and informative as this BB is, what happens on it does not consume me. I suggest you not let it consume you either- and to answer your question, No, I'll spin the dyno on my own dime in my own time.
 

jim x 3

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As you ask, I retract my call for $$ to defray dyno costs.

@ Jim x 3 I joined Oil Burners to learn about my truck, and share a bit of the camaraderie associated with a bunch of guys that love their old diesels. I did not join to be turned into a spectacle and jeered at. Please excuse me if I do not feel the same sense of urgency that some here may feel. Please understand that I absolutely do NOT feel that it is incumbent upon me to prove anything to anyone. I offered to share what I was doing as a matter of interest to anyone that was curious. I did NOT offer to be a guinea pig, paid for or not. I would appreciate it if you would retract your request to myself and the board at large, and in the future exercise some restraint before :yell: :yell: calling all hands and then pointing at me.
It may come as some surprise, but I actually have a life with lots things going on and work to do and as interesting and informative as this BB is, what happens on it does not consume me. I suggest you not let it consume you either- and to answer your question, No, I'll spin the dyno on my own dime in my own time.

BF: I joined for the same reasons. I don't think anyone is making you a spectacle and jeering, certainly not me. I was honestly interested in this and felt you had done some good work here. I have a lot of respect for the time, thought, effort and workmanship you've put into this.

This is entirely your deal. Since you have done all the work only you can decide how you would like to proceed. If I made you uncomfortable in calling for $$ for dyno runs I apologize. I was trying to help.

According to your wishes, I retract my request of you and I retract my call to the board at large for $$ to defray your dyno costs.

And now I guess I should just shut up!

Regards,
 

93turbo_animal

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It also might tend to make the burn quicker and just make up for retarded timing. Getting more energy from a catalytic action of H2 then it takes to separate the H2 and O is an extraordinary claim that should have the (extraordinary) evidence to support it. Check out these fuel magnet ads and read the scientific non-sense about how they reduce fuel consumption by up to 20% FuelMax, EcoMag and ProZone. And they've been selling this fuel magnet stuff for longer then most of us have been alive -- so it must be true or people wouldn't keep buying it.

Ok lets get this out of the way adding HHO will add power and fuel mileage the real question is can you make HHO with out hurting your fuel mileage to begin with. I beleive you can and this is why most people claim to try and keep thier amp draw between 15-25 amps and this should not be enough to ever notice atleast on our diesels. I was running wvo and had 60 amps of heaters to run it and never noticed a drop in mileage when I had to run the heaters versus when I didn't.
 

MR.T

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A couple years ago I suggested a quick experiment to someone experimenting with HHO devices, perhaps someone may find this cheap/quick test useful.

Wire the IP throttle so it holds some stable RPM, say 1800. Turn on the HHO device and note whether the tach increases, decreases, or stays the same. If the RPM goes up, the device is apparently adding net power and increasing efficiency. If not, it's not.
 

runaway!

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@RUNAWAY:

I've gotta call BS here. Your post just adds confusion to this issue. While vinegar (acetic acid) may be used to adjust the pH of the electrochemical system, it doesn't change the fact that at least 237.1 kJoules of energy is required to dissociate 1 mole of water. (And FYI, vinegar (acetic acid) IS a hydrocarbon and it can be created from petroleum. Its chemical formula is CH3COOH.)


Regards,

Could be created by petrol, but I'd bet you it isn't - as it can be created by biological methods. Even if it were a simple petrol distillate - I'd doubt it'd be that cheap.

I never said it takes less total energy! The SOURCE of the energy is important here. pH is a measurement of reactivity, which fundamentally reflects endothermic reaction - where energy is exchanged. If this had no contribution to the reaction, why is it used? To reduce the need for electrical energy inputs via cheap chemical energy inputs. Sorry man, no BS here!
 

runaway!

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@ Runaway Vinegar is NOT used as the electrolyte, KOH (potasium hydroxide) is. Vinegar is used in the first bubbler after the eleltrolyzer to help neutralize any KOH in the water vapor suspended in the output gas.

Regardless, doesn't exactly matter what is used - Vinegar has been used in these systems as a primary electrolyte. But thanks for the correction.
 
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