DB2 vs DB4 pump

[CBRF3]

Every rear engine powered school bus uses a hydraulic fan like that, as well as most pusher rv/motorhomes.

I'd consider them semi-reliable. Less reliable then a mechanical fan in a front engine vehicle, but that's because in a rear engine setting the fan is used a lot more because of no natural forced air going through the radiator. With a front engine, you have a lot of air going through the radiator at speed, so a mechanical fan with a silicone clutch or an electric clutch is rarely used, and their failures are less apparent.

I've got a dt408 swap in my head and was going to use hydraulic fan over an electric one. And as said earlier, a significant power steering cooler is necessary as well. A loop on the crossmember isn't going to cut it. My thoughts were to use a manual behind the dt, and then use the ATF cooler on the existing radiator as my power steering cooler.

nice idea but a good external trans cooler is better because it can cool the fluid lower than the engine coolant temp making the fluid a bit more thicker ( aka more efficient and need less GPM flow ) to push the fan motor easier and with less issues of fluid breakdown keep in mind also as you heat hydraulic fluid it expands and your reservior for the power steering pump is limited so keeping that thermal expansion minimal is key. I would use both but would use a sealed high pressure trans cooler infront of radiator pre fan motor then after dump into the radiator trans cooler this way when are under heavy heat dump your actually adding cooling capacity to your radiator not adding more load to it.

I myself run my fuel thru the radiator trans cooler pre injection pump to avoid thermal shock on the injection pump and I return my fuel from the injectors / injection pump pre filter ( factory filter head is removed and deleted altogether I use a large baldwin filter just under my bed below a large in bed fuel tank ) this way I get a heating effect to oncoming fuel and defeat filter plugging and such I also use a engine oil bypass filtration system I built / designed ( sub 5 micron ) and then after that goes into a large trans cooler this helps keep my engine oil temps in the good range when towing heavy / hard.

 

[79jasper]

I am assuming you are being sarcastic, but I am going to throw some guesses of the wall anyway.turbo?intercooler?bigger IP?bigger injectors? electronically controlled injection system? the fact that it is a lot newer so it should be more powerful? I never said IDIs are the most powerful thing on earth, or that nothing is comparable, I just tried to say they are very underrated. And FWIW I would trade off the extra power for the reliability of an IDI. A guy wanted to trade his 05 6.0 on 35s for my old IH. I thought about it, and while I still think on paper I was stupid to pass it up, I am glad I didn't get involved with it. I am not looking to start an argument over the reliability of a 6.0, but I am not going to be the one spending $15k to get it to that point.











Rock

Was not being sarcastic, just seeing if you knew the key factor. In-direct vs direct injection.
I was only touching on your opinion of "no replacement for displacement." That's all.
6.0 was just a example of being smaller, but more powerful.
Above was mentioned of a cummins being gutless without a turbo. That is correct, and due to having a lower compression ratio (which kinda comes with being direct injected). Any direct injected diesel will be that way.

Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk

 

[CBRF3]

Was not being sarcastic, just seeing if you knew the key factor. In-direct vs direct injection.
I was only touching on your opinion of "no replacement for displacement." That's all.
6.0 was just a example of being smaller, but more powerful.
Above was mentioned of a cummins being gutless without a turbo. That is correct, and due to having a lower compression ratio (which kinda comes with being direct injected). Any direct injected diesel will be that way.

Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk

I could not agree more indirect injected vs direct injected the key take aways are compression ratio's higher compressions ratios mean are not as reliant on a turbo and in essence are more efficient and able to run alternative fuels easier because of the said higher compression also the things about lower compression motors is theyre more tolerant to higher boost lvl's for our IDI's its a fine line with decompressing our motors because of starting issues I find doing the 5.9 cummins 12valve 370 marine injector nozzles machined down to fit in our motors compensates for most of that our engines rely heavily on the compression / heat so when we decompress our motors we need to change our injection spray setup to make them emulsify the fuel better so the fuel ignites easier in the flame cup reducing the issue with hard starting when decompressed ( be aware these injector nozzles don't play well with glow plugs installed do the delete i list later on simply put theyre in the way of the spray pattern and stop the injector nozzles from functioning properly ).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Performanc...843019?hash=item5b77050a8b:g:amAAAOSwN35e5xbu injector nozzles

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Intake-Man...213289?hash=item3d559acc69:g:rSYAAOSwoFVaVhWo intake heater

is the injector nozzles i speak of machine them down to fit aka the diameter where they go into our cylinder head these injector nozzles are a direct match to our originals where they go on the injector itself so its a simple mod ( retard timing slightly as these allow for quicker detenation of the fuel ) that makes starting our motors much easier then remove the glowplugs altogether and cut them off weld them shut on bottom then use a lathe to retaper them so they seal properly ( be aware these injector nozzles don't play well with glow plugs installed do the delete I explained simply put theyre in the way of the spray pattern and stop the injector nozzles from functioning properly ). Then add a intake heater from a 7.3 powerstroke ( or something similar theyre used in duramax diesels and many other powerstrokes ) where your CDR goes in back of your intake glow it on a cool day for about 10-15 seconds on a cold day 15-20 seconds and on a super cold day 20-25 seconds and your set and for the mornings where its way to cold plug the truck in or use a little ether it wont take hardly any these injector nozzles make starting much easier it suprised me first one i did it to before on really cold mornings ( up north cold not florida cold ) with fresh rebuilt injectors new nozzles I would almost do 1/4 can of ether to finally get truck started after these new nozzles ( 5.9 marine 370 nozzles and glow plug delete ) a little mist of ether or a lightly gas soaked rag in front of the air intake inlet / filter and off it went and very little puffing or anything just 3 rotations and it was running and almost ready to work and that motor was stupid decompressed ran 25psi of boost ( air to water intercooled super short piping all 3inch ) in that motor daily for years towing with the marine injector nozzles / glow plug delete and intake heater I never dynoed it but it was beastly now I do this mod to every one of my motors.

 

[Booyah45828]

Wait, you put a DI nozzle into an IDI?

What was your hole angle and how many holes/diameter of the holes?

 

[CBRF3]

Wait, you put a DI nozzle into an IDI?

What was your hole angle and how many holes/diameter of the holes?

I linked the injector nozzles and explained everything step by step you have to completely delete the glowplugs for them to work properly you do the math I used the OEM style crush washer for our injector nozzles and machined the outside diameter of the cummins 5.9 370 marine injector nozzles to match our OEM ones.

 

[Booyah45828]

I linked the injector nozzles and explained everything step by step you have to completely delete the glowplugs for them to work properly you do the math I used the OEM style crush washer for our injector nozzles and machined the outside diameter of the cummins 5.9 370 marine injector nozzles to match our OEM ones.

Your link literally has not one spec on it. Not one. Even the part number they listed is for the copper crush washer, not a nozzle.....

The only steps I see is where you state to machine the nozzle diameter down. Nothing else. For instance, what psi did you set the crack pressure at? Did you set the crack pressure? Did you measure the crack pressure? What did the precup look like after this was ran?

I'm trying to do the math, by knowing the hole number, size and spray angle, to see what you're actually doing. Googling 370 cummins injector reveals so much crap it's hard to decipher what's actually what.

There is a reason pintle nozzles are ran in idi engines vs. a multi hole, and that's because an IDI needs the fuel injected differently then a DI engine. Putting a typical wide angle DI nozzle in an IDI engine will have you spraying fuel at the walls of the precup. Pintle nozzles don't atomize the best at idle or cold, which is likely where you see improvement with your custom nozzles. But at larger injection quantities, I don't see how fuel isn't spraying the walls of the precup with how you have it. And that's likely why you have issues with your glow plugs when you run your nozzles.

I've had the idea of fitting a pintaux type nozzle for our idi's. Something that would provide a mutli-hole pattern at idle, and a pintle type pattern off of it. That would give you the easy starting and clean burning at idle that most are after, yet it would be a regular idi injector the rest of the time.

 

[CBRF3]

Your link literally has not one spec on it. Not one. Even the part number they listed is for the copper crush washer, not a nozzle.....

The only steps I see is where you state to machine the nozzle diameter down. Nothing else. For instance, what psi did you set the crack pressure at? Did you set the crack pressure? Did you measure the crack pressure? What did the precup look like after this was ran?

I'm trying to do the math, by knowing the hole number, size and spray angle, to see what you're actually doing. Googling 370 cummins injector reveals so much crap it's hard to decipher what's actually what.

There is a reason pintle nozzles are ran in idi engines vs. a multi hole, and that's because an IDI needs the fuel injected differently then a DI engine. Putting a typical wide angle DI nozzle in an IDI engine will have you spraying fuel at the walls of the precup. Pintle nozzles don't atomize the best at idle or cold, which is likely where you see improvement with your custom nozzles. But at larger injection quantities, I don't see how fuel isn't spraying the walls of the precup with how you have it. And that's likely why you have issues with your glow plugs when you run your nozzles.

I've had the idea of fitting a pintaux type nozzle for our idi's. Something that would provide a mutli-hole pattern at idle, and a pintle type pattern off of it. That would give you the easy starting and clean burning at idle that most are after, yet it would be a regular idi injector the rest of the time.

1750psi is my normal setting for stock nozzles but for these I run 1825psi and for all out performance 1900psi as for the injector nozzles themself look up and marine 5.9 370 nozzle theyre all made off the same specs use your noggin or do you need your hand held sorry just feel like your asking a bit much come on do your own research I linked as to the type of nozzle I use. I bought a bunch of them in bulk years ago actual cummins marine ones and machined them and tried them out and figured out the glow plug issue and addressed it and was impressed I still have the ones from that batch I bought years ago ( some still new in box already machined ) . I passed that knowledge to others here and now I am being demanded to go into exact scientific specs for you do your own research I work 7 days a week got a GF and projects to build I cannot do all the leg work for you.

I am sorry if you think I am being harsh but do your own research I am not a hands holder ( only hands I hold are my GF's or my daughters ) nor am I your babysitter .

yes I know about the pintle reason for the IDI but again different fuels now that emulsify easier ( due to being thinner and drier and has less BTU's ) and ignite easier than old diesel and well as i said the deleting of the glow plugs allows this to work in our engines this mod especially works for our engines when are heavily decompressed as many of mine are to push alot more boost safely.

as for the issue with the fuel hitting the pre cup walls yes that is true but also is with the IDI injector pintle style when cup is cold it back washes around the edges of the cup and this is why we often have harder cold starts the 370 marine nozzles I bought years ago eleviated this issue and helped mix the air and fuel together in precup ( this also is part of why timing needs to be slightly retarded compared to stardard nozzles) allowwing for compensation in the lower compression / heat generated allowing for easier ignition again complete glow plug delete is needed to work well.

I am sorry about coming off harsh but it irritates me when people cannot do theyre own research. I understand its hard to get the numbers it would be same for me but your asking me to do that work for you I bought my injector nozzles years ago in bulk 150+ nozzles in 1 whack at time the fleet I worked on was mainly cummins 12 valves. I got the bright idea why not I got to rebuild my injectors anyways and bam it worked with some 5 min of machining so I then installed them noticed didn't run quite right but the starting was easier then I had to do glow plugs because some had died which was a big part of the starting issues. I went and removed them found the bad ones had new ones on order ( was on back order for unknonw amount of time ) and said don't want to deal with them swelling up in mean time since were bad cut them off and welded them shut and well the weird running issue was solved now you know the whole story of how why and well dumb luck.

I like the pintaux type nozzle idea but when I found this solution many years ago well at time I had a ton of the 370 marine injector nozzles setting in front of me a lathe in the garage and well some off time and well you know how that ended and then a few weeks later I deleted the glowplugs for reason explained above and how nothing was done scientifically as others say it just worked and i figured it out out of dumb luck and chance and well boredom.

 

[Farmer Rock]

1750psi is my normal setting for stock nozzles but for these I run 1825psi and for all out performance 1900psi as for the injector nozzles themself look up and marine 5.9 370 nozzle theyre all made off the same specs use your noggin or do you need your hand held sorry just feel like your asking a bit much come on do your own research I linked as to the type of nozzle. I use I bought a bunch of them in bulk years ago actual cummins marine ones and machined them and tried them out and figured out the glow plug issue and addressed it and was impressed I still have the ones from that batch I bought years ago ( some still new in box already machined ) . I passed that knowledge to others here and now I am being demanded to go into exact scientific specs for you do your own research I work 7 days a week got a GF and projects to build I cannot do all the leg work for you.

I am sorry if you think I am being harsh but do your own research I am not a hands holder ( only hands I hold are my GF's or my daughters ) nor am I your babysitter .

yes I know about the pintle reason for the IDI but again different fuels now that emulsify easier ( due to being thinner and drier ) and ignite easier than old diesel and well as i said the deleting of the glow plugs allows this to work in our engines this mod especially works for our engines when are heavily decompressed as many of mine are to push alot more boost safely.

as for the issue with the fuel hitting the pre cup walls yes that is true but also is with the IDI injector pintle style when cup is cold it back washes around the edges of the cup and this is why we often have harder cold starts the 370 marine nozzles I bought years ago eleviated this issue and helped mix the air and fuel together in precup ( this also is part of why timing needs to be slightly retarded compared to stardard nozzles) allowwing for compensation in the lower compression / heat generated allowing for easier ignition again complete glow plug delete is needed to work well.

I am sorry about coming off harsh but it irritates me when people cannot do theyre own research. I understand its hard to get the numbers it would be same for me but your asking me to do that work for you I bought my injector nozzles years ago in bulk 150+ nozzles in 1 whack at time the fleet I worked on was mainly cummins 12 valves. I got the bright idea why not I got to rebuild my injectors anyways and bam it worked with some 5 min of machining so I then installed them noticed didn't run quite right but the starting was easier then I had to do glow plugs because some had died which was a big part of the starting issues. I went and removed them found the bad ones had new ones on order ( was on back order for unknonw amount of time ) and said don't want to deal with them swelling up in mean time since were bad cut them off and welded them shut and well the weird running issue was solved now you know the whole story of how why and well dumb luck.

I don't think anybody is looking for you to hold their hand, but when someone does something remarkably different that we aren't aware of, we want to know more about it and how it works . I am also interested in in your setup. I am not saying you are committed to anything of course, but I personally think that experience is the best teacher, and when I don't have that particular experience/skill I ask the guy who does. I am just speaking in general here.




Rock

 

[CBRF3]

I don't think anybody is looking for you to hold their hand, but when someone does something remarkably different that we aren't aware of, we want to know more about it and how it works . I am also interested in in your setup. I am not saying you are committed to anything of course, but I personally think that experience is the best teacher, and when I don't have that particular experience/skill I ask the guy who does. I am just speaking in general here.




Rock

I agree I simply don't have the specs and well its hard to get that stuff anymore I do not believe I have any of the paperwork anymore for these injectors used to they gave this stuff when you bought injector nozzles so you could set the proper height / orientation via different thickness of injector sealing washers. I apoligize to everyone if it came off harsh had a rough day at work I swear some of the people I work with that run the equipment / trucks they almost try to kill the equipment / trucks out of stupidity and i am the fleet mechanic that has to repair it its crazy some of the guys i swear could break something designed to be unbreakable they take it as a challenge.

 

[Farmer Rock]

I agree I simply don't have the specs and well its hard to get that stuff anymore I do not believe I have any of the paperwork anymore for these injectors used to they gave this stuff when you bought injector nozzles so you could set the proper height / orientation via different thickness of injector sealing washers. I apoligize to everyone if it came off harsh had a rough day at work I swear some of the people I work with that run the equipment / trucks they almost try to kill the equipment / trucks out of stupidity and i am the fleet mechanic that has to repair it its crazy some of the guys i swear could break something designed to be unbreakable they take it as a challenge.

No worries, and I know what you mean about people who could brake an anvil Lol. It's rough watching people destroy something, especially when you got to fix it




Rock

 

[Booyah45828]

I agree I simply don't have the specs and well its hard to get that stuff anymore I do not believe I have any of the paperwork anymore for these injectors used to they gave this stuff when you bought injector nozzles so you could set the proper height / orientation via different thickness of injector sealing washers. I apoligize to everyone if it came off harsh had a rough day at work I swear some of the people I work with that run the equipment / trucks they almost try to kill the equipment / trucks out of stupidity and i am the fleet mechanic that has to repair it its crazy some of the guys i swear could break something designed to be unbreakable they take it as a challenge.

That's all you needed to say. That you don't know it and the paperwork is long gone. Nobody thinks less of you for not knowing that. No hands need to be held.

I've spent over an hour looking and reading forum posts all over the web. The 370 nozzle seems to be a generic term used by the cummins guys. Some injectors have 5x.012, others have 5x.014, some 5x.017. I don't really care about the hole size, what I was after was the spray angle. And like hole sizes, the spray angle seems to have multiple options as well from 130-155.

I called my injection guy, and he said without a specific part number from cummins or bosch, he can't give me any specifics. And that's why I was looking for a specific part number. He said the nozzles can be custom made with any number of holes, sizes, and spray angles.

Back to my pintaux nozzle idea I mentioned. I'm seriously thinking of trying this. I feel the pintle nozzle is the reason the IDI is such a terrible cold starter compared to Di engines. We have more compression then most DI engines, so we should be better at it. A healthy idi struggles to start without a glow plug system except on the hottest of days. A healthy DI engine can fire off around freezing without a noticeable difference.

With you saying that you had better cold start characteristics with your nozzles, it only makes me believe that pintle nozzle theory further. However, I think the spray angle of a DI nozzle is way too wide for an IDI.

Now the question is, what angle size and number of holes do I want to use in my custom nozzles.....

 

[IDIBRONCO]

I know that at one time, Wes was toying with the idea of a hybrid type of injector. It sounds like it would have been similar to one of the ones that you two are using/wanting to use. I'll bet that he got too busy to carry on with farther research.

 

[CBRF3]

That's all you needed to say. That you don't know it and the paperwork is long gone. Nobody thinks less of you for not knowing that. No hands need to be held.

I've spent over an hour looking and reading forum posts all over the web. The 370 nozzle seems to be a generic term used by the cummins guys. Some injectors have 5x.012, others have 5x.014, some 5x.017. I don't really care about the hole size, what I was after was the spray angle. And like hole sizes, the spray angle seems to have multiple options as well from 130-155.

I called my injection guy, and he said without a specific part number from cummins or bosch, he can't give me any specifics. And that's why I was looking for a specific part number. He said the nozzles can be custom made with any number of holes, sizes, and spray angles.

Back to my pintaux nozzle idea I mentioned. I'm seriously thinking of trying this. I feel the pintle nozzle is the reason the IDI is such a terrible cold starter compared to Di engines. We have more compression then most DI engines, so we should be better at it. A healthy idi struggles to start without a glow plug system except on the hottest of days. A healthy DI engine can fire off around freezing without a noticeable difference.

With you saying that you had better cold start characteristics with your nozzles, it only makes me believe that pintle nozzle theory further. However, I think the spray angle of a DI nozzle is way too wide for an IDI.

Now the question is, what angle size and number of holes do I want to use in my custom nozzles.....

let me know what you find out with your testing I will try to get more info on my nozzles when I get time currently got alot on my plate to deal with so when that is I do not know.

I can agree with these nozzles cold starts are much much easier and quicker and it chugs much less in super cold we are talking 10 seconds or so vs 45 seconds or more slobbering in extreme cold starts these nozzles don't give the best top end but the low end these things are impressive and since I use the low end 80%-90% of time these have been great for me. I run alot of alternative fuels also and with these injector nozzles I don't get injector coking when idling for long periods like I did with the original type and my motors don't puff the hazy white smoke when left idling or when accelerating mildly like others did its pretty clean all around and the throttle response is impressive is all I can say hince why I do this mod to every motor I run.

My motors easily start with just a intake heater down to about 55f beyond that it takes a little persuasion but a small shot of propane or ether easily wakes it up without the intake heater cycling of course. I am telling you its night and day with these nozzles I have and the motor just runs so much smoother ( actually quieter also ) at idle and about same all the way upto around 2500rpm then it kind of hesitates on acceleration but anything below is much better than the OEM nozzles again I have been running these for like 10yrs in over 8 motors and around 5 trucks or more most turbo 1 or 2 of the motors are NA and again it just works but you have to delete the glow plugs sadly to make it work.

I will also say this even my old wore out motor in my truck I am redoing current with so much blowby its scary starts easily with 0 glowplugs and 0 intake heater just the 370 marine nozzles and this is with a stock injection pump the glowplugs on that motor are cut off and welded shut and all wiring disconnected i might try to get some video of it and put it on here its a beat up old wore out ragged truck I am redoing and the blowby on it is horendous yet it still starts happily with a tiny I mean tiny shot of ether in morning in sub 55f damp humid mornings. The impressive part is it has been around 45f-50f recently in mornings and humid and well the old beater is what have been driving . So I can assure you its impressive what these nozzles do I had to change them and didn't want to buy new OEM nozzles and had those laying in a box in back of garage already machined ready to go swapped them set pop pressure to 1825psi and installed them deleted glowplugs and well just ran it night and day difference.

 

[CBRF3]

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well took some video of the old farm / work truck that am rebuilding ( 1 of my current projects ) today to show glow plugs deleted no intake heater and starts fine and is running on waste motor oil to boot and it was like 60f at time we topped out at like 70f today along with runs good even with tons of blowby even with a 1 1/4 inch road draft and CDR it bellows blowby out the dipstick tube yet starts like a champ if was running the OEM injector nozzles the thing would run rough and like crap and would be nearly impossible to start I tested it before and some cylinders are around 350psi several of them to be exact.

The 5.9 cummins 12valve 370 marine injector nozzles machined to fit work like a charm and makes this old pig run pretty good even with so low of compression I can almost spin the motor over by grabbing the crank pulley.

video was recorded with my cell phone mounted on a windshield mount forgive the vibrations and such and remember we are talking a big old wore out heavy dually with superduty f450 springs.

Got to love a good 4inch log stack exhaust system ( built correctly ) with dual 3 inch inlets from manifolds 2 1/4 inch to flowmaster ( 3inch in and out ) mufflers then 3inch out true duals all the way to the exhaust log stack system I built. I built the flatbed around the 38klb 5th wheel hitch and exhaust those were critical to me .

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[Dieselburner 68]

if you need more fuel than a DB2 can deliver,
why not just go balls deep?

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Sorry for bumping this thread. But what engine and what injection pump do you have? Did you make it to run in your car? Sorry again.