what size intercooler pipe to use?

[subway]

I have a powerstroke intercooler I want to install in my 94. The intercooler has 3" in and out and my factory ATS setup measures 2" on the turbo outlet and intake snail. I know a lot of people run 3" pipe all around but I am thinking I don't need to go this big. It would be nice to only have to buy adapters for one side of the system, they can add up fast.

Does anyone know what size the hypermax kit runs, those guys have done their homework and I think that it would be a good jumping off point. I am thinking of running smaller pipes to keep the velocity up in the pipes and reduce lag. It also makes it easier to run in a tight engine compartment. I am not sure 2" inch is enough though. I would hate to go to small and not be happy. Just trying to make sure I order the right kit.

I want to get this project under way to keep the bull moose pump happy!

 

[fordf350man]

im not sure but i am debating between two intercoolers right now, both i got off of a semi truck, one ha a 3 inch inlet and outlet and would fit much better, the other i have i 4 inch inlet and outlet and its massive, 3 inch thick, i know that is overkill and would make allot of turbo lag but i might lower egts pretty good and maybe i can add more fuel to make up the difference, not sure yet, for you i think the 3 inch would be perfect most are running 3 inch and have no complaints

 

[TWeatherford]

I'd run 2 inch for simplicity. Yes, you would have less restriction running 3" but as you said would have more volume in the system to pressurize. With a 2" restriction on there already it won't make much difference IMO.

 

[idiabuse]

I run a 2.5 out of the turbo into a 3 inch system.
All smooth bends, the intercooler is smaller the the
OEM powerstroke but it is mounted in direct path
of air flow behind the grill.

The engine responds well at partial throttle and the cooler
works well with my combination.

I have no sharp bends so the boost comes in well past 15psi
when I put it to the floor.

I sure could use a bit more Injection pump but for now it is reliable.


Javier

 

[FORDF250HDXLT]

good things can be seen here:
http://www.oilburners.net/forums/showthread.php?4911-Let-s-Talk-Intercoolers

 

[subway]

Thanks FordF250, I have been using that link. I believe yours is the closest I was looking at. Unfortunately since loosing webshots Melancholy is not in there and Heaths documentation is gone as well, I actually had got Heath to send me pics of his system.

I am still wondering what size the hypermax system is. I would be tempted to run 2.5 as a compromise but buying adapter boots for both ends of the system can add up to nearly the cost of a whole generic turbo install kit for about 100.Thanks guys keep the ideas coming!

 

[FORDF250HDXLT]

im not sure what size pipe they use in the hypermax system,but i copied the old (now long since discontinued and rarely seen) the ats setup with 2.25" pipe.
i had lost a little off the line snap,but i didn't even try retarding the timing yet.im at 8.5BTDC
i'll knock her back to 7 BTDC and see how it feels,and track FE for a few tanks.
i am only boosting 6 psi peaks,and my EGT's are low at 800F peaks.so i could stop being a sissy and turn her up a tad too,but she sends my 8k lb dually box truck right up to 80mph rapidly already,so it's not exactly like im short on power.she pulls the dump trailer loaded nice to boot.i'll tweak her some more though just cus there's more potential no doubt.
i think im going to do this today.i installed a turbo blanket and got pretty much all my off the line snap back though,followed by a hint of turbo whistle which was long since gone.so that little 50$ ****** did help too.

http://www.snowwest.ca/swpd/ford10.htm

 

[subway]

Ok i am doing some digging, I found this info posted by Turbosocks on velosterturbo.org


Turbo Systems: Intercooler pipe, Intercooler flow

OK, I'm no expert on on this, i pretty much gathered a bunch of info up off the net and am interpreting it the best i can.

INTERCOOLERS

Alot of people think the biggest IC they can fit behind the bumper, the better, but this is far from true. If you have a small 20lb (~280cfm) t15 turbo, and a HUGE intercooler, your system is gonna have alot more lag than a t15 turbo should have and not a very good powerband.

My suggestions when putting together a turbo kit is to get an intercooler is not rater more than 15%+ what your turbo is rated at. For example, if you had a 35lb turbo (~500cfm) I would not use an intercooler rated more than 575cfm. This will give you room to upgrade your turbo a little, but wont be too big to lose out on efficiency.

not all intercoolers will have flow information, nor will you be able to get such information from the manufacturer/distributor.

The intercoolers I use in most of my turbo kits (21"x6"x2.5" core) will usually suffice for most aftermarket turbo setups. They are rated at around 550cfm which is good for 320+hp. A simple upgrade to a (22"x8"x3.5" core) will put you in an efficient range to 400+hp.

For most people either one of these sizes should fit the needs of your turbo setup.

INTERCOOLER PIPING

First things first, before I post all this technical garble. The most common IC piping that I have seen is 2.5" and that is FINE for almost any turbo setup. The benefits of smaller, matched piping is a bit quicker spool up and the piping being more efficient overall. Reason being, the air will have higher velocity at any given CFM.

Even though most setups use 2.5" (including mine) it doesn't mean its the BEST size to use. In fact, its NOT in most cases (including my kits). The reason being, 2.5" is cheaper in almost all cases and more readily available since its good for almost any setup, including HUGE turbos. 2.5" can flow efficiently up to 740CFM which is around a 52lb/min turbo (t3/t4e 60trim) and about 600hp

According to Corky Bell (MAX BOOST) 304mph/.40 mach is the point at which airflow meets increased resistance (drag) and flow losses are experienced. So thats where you would upgrade.

Below is a list of calculations for the most common pipe sizes:

2" piping
1.57 x 2 = 3.14 sq in
300 cfm = 156 mph = 0.20 mach
400 cfm = 208 mph = 0.27 mach
500 cfm = 261 mph = 0.34 mach
585 cfm max = 304 mph = 0.40 mach


2.25" piping
3.9740625 sq in = 1.98703125 x 2
300 cfm = 123 mph = 0.16 mach
400 cfm = 164 mph = 0.21 mach
500 cfm = 205 mph = 0.26 mach
600 cfm = 247 mph = 0.32 mach
700 cfm = 288 mph = 0.37 mach
740 cfm max = 304 mph = 0.40 mach


2.5" piping
4.90625 sq in = 2.453125 x 2
300 cfm = 100 mph = 0.13 mach
400 cfm = 133 mph = 0.17 mach
500 cfm = 166 mph = 0.21 mach
600 cfm = 200 mph = 0.26 mach
700 cfm = 233 mph = 0.30 mach
800 cfm = 266 mph = 0.34 mach
900 cfm = 300 mph = 0.39 mach
913 cfm max = 304 mph = 0.40 mach


2.75" piping
5.9365625 sq in = 2.96828125 x 2
300 cfm = 82 mph = 0.10 mach
400 cfm = 110 mph = 0.14 mach
500 cfm = 137 mph = 0.17 mach
600 cfm = 165 mph = 0.21 mach
700 cfm = 192 mph = 0.25 mach
800 cfm = 220 mph = 0.28 mach
900 cfm = 248 mph = 0.32 mach
1000 cfm = 275 mph = 0.36 mach
1100 cfm max = 303 mph = 0.40 mach


3.0" piping
7.065 sq in = 3.5325 x 2
300 cfm = 69 mph = 0.09 mach
400 cfm = 92 mph = 0.12 mach
500 cfm = 115 mph = 0.15 mach
600 cfm = 138 mph = 0.18 mach
700 cfm = 162 mph = 0.21 mach
800 cfm = 185 mph = 0.24 mach
900 cfm = 208 mph = 0.27 mach
1000 cfm = 231 mph = 0.30 mach
1100 cfm = 254 cfm = 0.33 mach
1200 cfm = 277 mph = 0.36 mach
1300 cfm max= 301 mph = 0.39 mach



Just for reference again:

Some turbos will be listed in CFM (cubic feet per min) to convert lb/min to CFM, use the following calculation as a base.

lb/min / .070318 = CFM
35 / .070318 = ~497cfm, the turbo would probably be listed as a 500cfm turbo

 

[subway]

so how does that apply to our engines? well i ran some numbers according to the calculations in my Turbo book.

CID x .5 x Max RPM/1728 = CFM

so 444 x .5 x 3500 (I bumped the max RPM a bit from 3300) /1728 = 450 CFM


now our engines are not 100% efficient at pumping air, for a regular 2 valve V-8 they give a volumetric efficiency of 80%
CFM x VE = Flow potential
450 x .8 = 360 Flow potential

Next i needed some numbers from a chart to get the density ratio, to get there i had to calculate the Pressure Ratio
(Boost Pressure P1 + Ambiant Pressure) / Ambiant Pressure P1 = Pressure Ratio

(15 (my Max boost i want) + 14.7) / 14.7 = 2.02 PR

then i can use my "Density Ratio With Aftercooling" chart to get a 1.74 Density Ratio

this plugs into CFM x DR = CFM with turbo
360 x 1.74 = 626.4 CFM with turbo

so using that my engine will need a pipe to support a flow rate of 626 CFM, that puts me into the 2.25" piping range to meet my needs. Now saying that after reading through more equations it sounds as if moving up in pipe size to even 3" only adds less than a fraction of a second turbo lag. I was also reading that if you really want to get into it you can with temperature changes affecting density and overall speed of the air.

i am thinking for my simplicity and cost i will most likely go with the 3" system knowing i have room to grow a plenty iffen i win the lottery since 2" is a bit to small saying all of this i am no expert so us all of this at your own risk. i am just playing with information i have looked up and it seems to work for me.

 

[justinray]

I did the math and at 10 psi and 3000 rpm to a 7.3, thats 530 cfm, assuming a volumetric efficiency of .8 which is somewhat realistic.

 

[justinray]

You have to expect a boost drop after intercooling, correct?

 

[Hyde]

Adapter boots are 11.99ea at siliconeintakes.com, Id go right to 3" out of the turbo then back down into your hat.

 

[subway]

yes i do expect a drop in pressure using the inter-cooler, its part of the game but the air should be much cooler. right now with my Bull moose pump i can make the pyro dance right into the red if i stay on the throttle to long. i might have to check out silicone intakes, looking on amazon since i have an account they seem to be running in the 20-25 a piece range for adapter boots. at that price if i buy 4 i am at the cost of the whole instillation kit.....

 

[idiabuse]

I noticed my boost takes longer to build when light throttle is applied with the intercooler than without.
But I have more boost 15+psi with the cooler than 10/12psi MAX without the cooler.
When I hold it wide open from a stop the boost builds fast to max psi, I only have a 15psi gauge so
Max boost? Dunno maybe 17/18 psi? don't really know.


I definitely received more boost after the cooler install in my setup.


Javier

 

[fordf350man]

ok im learning allot about intercoolers on here, so deffiently not going with the 4 inch, thought it was way to big anyway, got it for 20 bucks was the only reason i have it, anybody have any idea how much boost an hx35w would produce? its off a 5.9 cummins, im using that for the turbo on my idi