turbo? or cummins

[Goofyexponent]

Well, I don't know a WHOLE lot about the IDI's, but here's my opinion.....both international and cummins make a pretty damn good engine. The IDI is already in the truck, and an aftermarket turbo can be installed in about 7-10 hours depending on how mechanicly inclined you are. As said before, with an intercooler, moose pump and bigger injectors, you can safely make more power (WITH A PYRO INSTALLED). The trucks seem to run FOREVER and dont seem to complain.

A 6BT is a pretty good engine, but you will have to do some engineering to get the truck and engine together. If done right it would be as reliable as a 1st generation dodge, but with the stylin looks of a ford!

Personally, I would turbo the IDI. It will run better than a factory IDI turbo, because the kits are designed to provide more power than the low boost factory system (or at leas tthat is my understanding, correct me if i am wrong) Keep in mind that you will not be able to blow 40 PSI of boost and be able to run up a hill with the front tires off the ground or anything, but you will have a more powerful RELIABLE engine that you can get parts for by taking your VIN to the dealer, try THAT with a cummins swap....

 

[91f2504x4]

Man, those pics in your signature are huge, I don't think I have ever seen anyone put pics that big in there signature

But anyway, swaps are fun just so you can say that you have done it, but in the end it costs a lot more than you ever thought it was going to unless you run up on a good deal that comes with everything to make it happen. I have done plenty of swaps myself on trucks, tractors and cars, and it always ends up taking lots of parts that are hard to find or are very expensive. With the cummins swap, at least it has been done many many times and there is lots of documentation on it, but when I was looking at the parts for the swap, it was going to be far from cheap. I had a IH DT358 here that I wanted to put in mine but after looking into all the crap I was going to have to buy I changed my mind. If I could have went to the junkyard and bought an engine and tranny together such as a DT360 or DT466 I would have put the two in as one unit. I don't mind making mounts but making adapters to hook engines to transmission is no fun at all, requires lot of measuring 5 times and recutting 3 times to make sure that you have it right. You have to really make sure that everything is centered and properly spaced to make sure that your trans and engine live a long healthy life togehter. And if you look on those conversion sites, the adapter plates aren't all that cheap even for a cummins to ZF5 which is getting to be fairly common.

 

[Diesel JD]

With the IH DT series you really shouldn't need any transmission adapters should you? Does it use the SAE#3 bellhousing just like the IH spec'd 6.9 and 7.3? I know that doesn't help with the Ford transmissions but would one really want to mate a T19 or ZF5 to a "hot" Dt360 or 466 anyway? Sounds like a good way to ask for trouble. A medium or heay duty tranny sounds like a real good idea.

 

[91f2504x4]

With the IH DT series you really shouldn't need any transmission adapters should you? Does it use the SAE#3 bellhousing just like the IH spec'd 6.9 and 7.3? I know that doesn't help with the Ford transmissions but would one really want to mate a T19 or ZF5 to a "hot" Dt360 or 466 anyway? Sounds like a good way to ask for trouble. A medium or heay duty tranny sounds like a real good idea.

No, that is why I was saying that if I could get a complete engine and trans from a bigger truck in a junkyard, I would be willing to do the swap, but I would not want to deal with trying to adapt the engine to a ZF or whatever light transmission was stock in whatever truck a person happens to be working on .

 

[IHOlRed]

where can you get the moose injectors/pump

 

[ameristar1]

PM Agnem, he can give you all the details about what you have to do since that is his deal.

 

[david85]

So how much power can you get out of a cummins 12V without replacing head bolts or other internals and still be reliable?

I feel it might be a stretch to get 300Hp without having to change some of the parts, but I'm not an expert in building a cummins.

 

[ameristar1]

300hp is just getting started with a Cummins. The bottom end is 1000whp capable or 1200hp at the crank. The marine versions run at 370hp. You may push a gasket at 50psi boost, and need to upgrade the bolts at 80-100psi boost, even though there's a guy that has a 9 second street truck that runs stock bolts (his engine builder found a technique to make them live at 1200hp). If you see a B series apart and see the size of the crank, rods, pistons and fasteners from the factory, you can see why they can hang in there at ridiculous power levels. As long as the tune is right, you can make as much power as you want.
As a side bar, as good as the B series is, I'd rather have the IH DT. It truly is a better motor for making big power.

 

[david85]

I wasn't asking about 1000Hp, there was a 6.9 IDI that did 1200Hp too. With the right budget, anything's possible. There were marine IDIs that were rated at over 300 Hp too, but thats not really a fair comparison because of the added cooling on a boat that isn't possible in a truck.

So I ask again, what is involved in making 300 Hp with a cummins? Is it as simple as simply turning up the fuel?

 

[ameristar1]

With a Bosch P7100 equipped B series, a power plate, opening up the intake and exhaust, a governor spring kit, and some tuning on the pump. Depending on where the engine is rated, a set of injectors. Nothing exotic. nevrenufhp has a site that deals with doing cheap or free mods to these engines and others if you want to take a look.
Checked on a combo: 96 Dodge: "0" plate, 370hp injectors, 4" exhaust with no muffler, stock HX35 turbo w/wired shut wastegate, advanced timing, 364hp/866lb-ft of torque at the wheels.

 

[Rot Box]

So I ask again, what is involved in making 300 Hp with a cummins? Is it as simple as simply turning up the fuel?

You could turn up the fuel in a P7100 Cummins and get 300hp but not reliably. You would have a really hard time not melting a turbo without other upgrades...

Not sure what year Cummins you are asking about, but remember there are 3 entirely different engines offered in the Dodge 6bt 5.9 trucks. VE rotary pump 12 valve in the first gens, P7100 piston pump in the 12 valve 2nd gens, VP44 electronic rotory pump (which is responsible for the "Cummins have expensive injector pumps" remarks) in the 24V 2nd gens and the Common Rail 24 valve in the later 3rd gen trucks.

The later the model the easier it is to make 300HP. With a first gen you would need a different turbo, injectors, intake/exhaust, and a few pump modifications to make 300RWH. With most of the 24 valves you can easily make those numbers with a simple tuner and injectors--maybe a turbo upgrade depending on the year. In reality it is cheaper to get 300rwh safely out of the Cummins compared to the IDI.

 

[snicklas]

david85,

Travis is making high HP out of the goat truck. He had it into Cummins to look for an oil leak, they cleaned the engine and put it on the dyno. The tech made an off comment that he saw something like 5XXhp. He wasn't dyno'ing it so he did not record any numbers, he was just exercizing the engine to make it leak. I know the Trav has a BHAF a 3 piece exhaust manifold (due to heat warping the 1 piece manifold and lifting the head) "big" injectors, and a modified fuel plate. Other than that, he hasn't done an major parts replacement to make this happen..... There may be some things that I am missing, but I do know the engine has not been apart other than the head gasket, and it has over 300k miles on it, and has been turned up most of its life....

 

[david85]

I'm trying to figure out why people seem to think the cummins is a silver bullet for making over 300Hp without big cost even when starting off with a working IDI. So far, I haven't seen any evidence of that.

My question was mainly aimed at the 12V cummins since thats the one that most guys use in conversions, and those are the cheapest ones to buy. The newer engines can surely make more power, but also cost more to buy up front. Kinda like comparing a powerstroke to a 6.9....

If you have to start replacing things like injectors, injector pumps, turbocharger, head bolts, and manifolds, I really don't see it as being a cheaper option. What does all of that cost? An IDI that only needs a turbocharger to get to 250-260 Hp if the rest of the engnine and fuel system is good. Head bolts and a moose pump are another $1000 on top of that, but until more guys start dynoing their "moosed" IDIs, we won't know what is really possible with those mods.

I'll need to see some more info on that 5XX Hp engine before I believe that claim.

 

[Darrin Tosh]

I'm trying to figure out why people seem to think the cummins is a silver bullet for making over 300Hp without big cost even when starting off with a working IDI. So far, I haven't seen any evidence of that.

My question was mainly aimed at the 12V cummins since thats the one that most guys use in conversions, and those are the cheapest ones to buy. The newer engines can surely make more power, but also cost more to buy up front. Kinda like comparing a powerstroke to a 6.9....

If you have to start replacing things like injectors, injector pumps, turbocharger, head bolts, and manifolds, I really don't see it as being a cheaper option. What does all of that cost? An IDI that only needs a turbocharger to get to 250-260 Hp if the rest of the engnine and fuel system is good. Head bolts and a moose pump are another $1000 on top of that, but until more guys start dynoing their "moosed" IDIs, we won't know what is really possible with those mods.

I'll need to see some more info on that 5XX Hp engine before I believe that claim.

388HP 923TQ on straight Diesel
436HP 968TQ on ****

This is a 91 D250 with the 280K miles with the following mods
intercooled,
4" straight piped,
PDR HX-40, (bigger turbo)
BHAF,
AFC lever MIA,
fuel screw 1/4 turn from runaway,
piston LP,
366 spring,
timing bumped to the head.

The only thing in this list that cost any real money is the bigger turbo. This truck has stock injectors, stock head bolts, and the motor has never been apart. This also a VE Pumped motor, not the P pump that Travis has. Most of the rest of the stuff is inexpensive pump adjustments.

When I had my IDI I was able to dyno it, with LPG, Banks Turbo, pump turned up and ram air intake and big exhaust, here is what I ran.

HP 205.35 Torque 362.64

I still have not been able to dyno my truck with the Cummins yet and will not speculate on what numbers I will put down but well see,..

 

[Diesel_brad]

any ideas on how much more HP the moose pump and injectors will give a turboed idi? Like actual reliable numbers., Not block splitting engine destroying numbers. What is the most an idi is capable of w "off the shelf" parts? Like turbo,studs,IP/ injectors. I cant really see an idi staying together past the 300 mark. I'm not knocking 300 but if someone is looking for more than i think a cummins is a economical choice to build 500+ reliable power. I think that is what it all comes down to. Hopw much your willing to spend and how much HP you are looking for

With that being said.... No cummins for me. I'm going completely differnt and going to a STROKE to make 500+, but i am also going to spend 10k+ to do it but i am going to have a completely tunable/drivable/towable truck buy the turn of a knob O and did i mention very little smoke!