Proof of a thermostat gone bad.......

[metalminded]

Can someone post some pictures of various thermostats? i am not familiar with the important design aspects when choosing a tstat for this application. side by side comparisons would be nice as an explanation. With my personal experience i have encountered a few hit or miss stant tstats with various applications(mainly honda, toyota) i have never had a problem with an oem tstat.

OEM may cost more, but generally you can be assured that you will at least get a reasonable service life out of it, where as aftermarket is hit or mis and buyer beware...

My experiences have led me to create a similar outlook on aftermarket vs oem.

 

[Agnem]

I think Scott has gotten lucky. Either that, or his little 1/16" hole works magic. There are way too many horror stories of thermostat mayhem with non-Motorcraft/IH brands. This is how the conventional wisdom was achieved. I have no doubt that Stant, or somebody other than Ford, makes the Motorcraft and IH thermostat. After all, Ford and IH are first and foremost engine/chassis/body companies. They do not need to, nor want to make things such as a thermostat, radiator, electric fan, or even a water pump. They do like every other manufacturer does, and they go to a vendor who specializes in making such things. However, when you buy from NAPA, Autozone, or their likeness, you will not find a huge department dedicated to quality control. Having worked for a manufacturer who produced a quality product and who did outsource smaller components, I do know that while every part is not tested, random samples are chosen and ARE tested. This ensures that the vendor is held accountable to a higher standard. Having worked for a manufacturer, I also know that customers who lowball and don't have strict quality requirements will often get product that is just barely passable. So when you buy Motorcraft or IH, what you are paying for is the assurance that it is a good part. Something that sadly, should be a guarantee with every part, but in reality is only an assumption. The cost of an item is really made up of much more than the cost of materials and labor to make it. In my own business, the time to test, package, and warrant is all part of the equation of what to charge for something. If you are a business and you buy from Autozone and they sell you a thermostat, if it is bad, they may just give you another one and say sorry. They do not have to pay for the labor, time and materials to replace it. How much incentive is there then, in caring if the part is good? Where as a Ford dealer, who installs a Motorcraft thermostat, and if it is bad, will have recourse and compensation from Ford for the labor and parts to install it. Ford is going to be as sure as they can, that the vendor who sells them the thermostat, is providing a quality item. Otherwise, warranty claims will outstrip any profit made on that part. Such checks and balances are what sets the price higher on dealer parts. We all tend to use what we know will work. Beru glow plugs, Motorcraft water pumps, and yes thermostats, are all part of the conventional wisdom we have acquired from 16 years of reading and sharing information on the internet. There is nothing wrong with venturing outside of those accepted norms, provided that you understand why such standards have been accepted as the reliable norm.

 

[sle2115]

Mel, have you ever submitted a labor claim to Autozone or Advance? I have, and it was paid, maybe not at the rate it should have been, but you can bet your ass that whenever a customer brought a car to the shop with their own parts, they were told we only warranty our work, not the part. As such, many times, if a part failed, we were paid by the time labor guide for the replacement. It was usually paid at say $35 when our price was $40, but it was paid, and besides, I would question most mechanics that cant cut the time/labor guide times substantially in most cases. That also being said, I didn't work at or sell parts for either of those, I ran a traditional parts store, Parts Plus that changed to Auto Value, both of which carry a much different set of standards than the mass merchandisers previously mentioned, we also carry and source only quality parts. I've sold parts for over 20 years, and NEVER to my knowledge remember having a Stant stat returned...other than once the new owner started swapping lines out, and out line was changed to Robert Shaw, then back to Stant...prolly in 2 weeks, like I said, that's when I quit. Also, mine is not the only Stant t-stat running around here in 6.9/7.3's...I've installed quite a few, let's say I know of more than 5 running around here with them. Seems when you get timing tools, the ole farmers around here seek you out quite regularly to have you time their ole farm trucks! Lucky, I think not...

 

[Agnem]

No Scott, I haven't and if I was wrong I stand corrected. The Night Moose came into our family because the previous owner took it to NAPA and they put a NAPA thermostat in it, and it seized up and overheated the 6 cylinder. NAPA would not give him any restitution. My point was not to debate the validity of the thermostat that your running. Only to point out that more people would need to do so and have great results before we could all go around recommending Stant. Everyone bases their opinions on personal experience, and that of course is precisely the point. When a newbie comes in though, and says "what thermostat should I get" I'm just not comfortable recommending something else. I'm glad you are, and your making us aware that your having success gets us all one step closer to being able to feel comfortable about it. I know Lucky Larue ran an aftermarket and felt that way too.

 

[metalminded]

In the past i have gone with Stant thermostats due to availability and price, in this case however the OEM unit is a hair cheaper.

Via Rock auto here are the two thermostats side by side

the motorcraft at $16.19
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=383895&cc=1126730

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the Stant at $16.53
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=418526&cc=1126730

You must be registered for see images

Different Gasket solutions as well. while i like the idea of the stants gasket(i think it makes for an easier replacement) the motorcraft looks more fail safe.

 

[Black dawg]

I think the bottom line is, that if you cant visually tell what t stat will make this cooling system work correctly, you should just get the ford or ih stat.

I personally and in the shop have quit using the motorcraft/IH stat, because I got several that while they were the correct style, looked like cheap re boxed junk.

 

[whiteboyslo]

Wow, lot of action on this one! Nice to see a healthy and mature debate on all this. It's good to bring this kind of stuff up every once in a while to remind us of why we regurgitate all the folklore around here (as you'd find on any forum).

Anywho, just as a follow-up, I have yet to have a real good opportunity to push the truck since I did all the work. Just the typical 3-mile commute and the lunchtime errand running. But, even with that little bit of driving, the changes in temps from what it was prior are quite impressive. Idle for my truck used to be right at 205, MAYBE down to 203 if I sat in one spot long enough and the temp outside was cooler. Now? 191 at idle. All day long. Temps around town range from 191 to 199, fluctuating back and forth between the two (t-stat opening and closing is my guess).

Best I could do to 'push it' was a couple of very healthy runs right up to the governor in 3rd (black smoke, ahoy!), and the most I've seen out of it was 205. Couldn't get it past there no matter how hard I pushed, and it dropped back into the 190s very quickly after getting off the throttle. VERY, VERY pleased with all this.

Thanks again to riotwarrior for the KILLER step by step on the R&R. It's been a long while since I've had a job go that smoothly, especially something coolant-related (seems to be my Achilles' heel as of late. Always something that decides to leak a day after I get done with the work).

Mike

 

[icanfixall]

Scott. This 1/16 hole drilled in the thermostat is something I have know of for years. Figuring out what size hole is needed is the tuff question. Now when you install the drilled thermostat do you place the drilled hole at the highest position it can be in the block or do you just place it and forget it.

 

[Black dawg]

If it is possible to rotate the stat and make the hole at a higher point, then yes do so.

For those who think that the hole in the stat will be noticed as slow warm up or anything like that, I usually drill a 1/8 inch hole, with no difference in warm up. Even in really cold weather.

 

[sle2115]

Scott. This 1/16 hole drilled in the thermostat is something I have know of for years. Figuring out what size hole is needed is the tuff question. Now when you install the drilled thermostat do you place the drilled hole at the highest position it can be in the block or do you just place it and forget it.

If possible, but it doesn't really matter, the pressure of the coolant will push the air out enough wherever it is to allow coolant to get to the heat sensing part (bimetal) of the thermostat. Hot air will not heat it enough to let it open, thus the air is never pushed out below the stat, it get trapped.

 

[sle2115]

No Scott, I haven't and if I was wrong I stand corrected. The Night Moose came into our family because the previous owner took it to NAPA and they put a NAPA thermostat in it, and it seized up and overheated the 6 cylinder. NAPA would not give him any restitution. My point was not to debate the validity of the thermostat that your running. Only to point out that more people would need to do so and have great results before we could all go around recommending Stant. Everyone bases their opinions on personal experience, and that of course is precisely the point. When a newbie comes in though, and says "what thermostat should I get" I'm just not comfortable recommending something else. I'm glad you are, and your making us aware that your having success gets us all one step closer to being able to feel comfortable about it. I know Lucky Larue ran an aftermarket and felt that way too.

Must be a store by store basis as I've submitted them to Napa as well. As far as covering a failed engine, especially due to a thermostat, I'm sure it would be questioned, as I would also question it, but that being said...not standing behind what they sell is hurting Napa quite badly. In fact, yesterday, I drove by our local Napa and they were having a cookout for all their customers, free of course...right next door is a Parts America store, another traditional...even with free food, there was one care in the Napa parking lot and the neighboring store was full. I guess I'll just have to accumulate a thousand installs of Stant to safely recommend them...wait, I'm guessing I probably have close that! I' know I've sold a bunch of them as well.

 

[sle2115]

Gary, hole size isn't so important, as long as it is small...it's to bleed air, not coolant, and as was mentioned, Stant has now built them with the hole and a jiggler valve (what Stant calls it).

(Not aimed at Gary) Like I said, i'm all for using quality parts, I made a living for many years, as the sole provider for my family installing parts, if I had to warranty them, often it was out of my pocket or the pocket of the garage I managed or turned wrenches in, which ultimately resulted in it coming out of my pocket. A 1/16" hole will not allow enough coolant to pass through it to cause any problem at all (proven by then installation of a jiggler valve setup in the current run of Stant stats). And again, I have nothing to do with Stant other than being a loyal customer. It doesn't make a difference to me one way or another if you buy Stant or Motorcraft...just tired of hearing that' s all that will work! I've proven that's not the case, take it or leave it

 

[sle2115]

I think the bottom line is, that if you cant visually tell what t stat will make this cooling system work correctly, you should just get the ford or ih stat.

I personally and in the shop have quit using the motorcraft/IH stat, because I got several that while they were the correct style, looked like cheap re boxed junk.

As have I, which led to my doubting of using them and only them...it's proven by myself and others here the Stant are fine, but like many other things, some will never accept it, again...I think stock ownership is more the issue!

 

[icanfixall]

We have a member here in cali that posted a pic of a thermostat that really "looked" like a motorcraft thermostat. Reason he removed it was his engine was begining to run hot with no problems factored in. What he found was a stat made in china with all but one of those metal straps broken on the top side and the last one was cracked. It was an impressive find. He bought the truck or the engine that way with the aftermarket thermostat in it. The factory tells us the thermostat needs to be at least 0.260 thousands open when its 212 degrees. Testing that in boiling water on the stove is tuff let me tell you. I have done it countless times. As soon as you remove the stat frm the boiling water 2 things happen. It starts to close quickly and you figure out just how hot 212 degrees really is... The factory shop manual makes it look so simple a task too.. Thermostats don't all open at the same pace either. I do two motorcraft thermostats at a time when I heat them up. I also suspend them in the boiling water so the bottom of the pan does not overheat them. I may try the Stant thermostats just to see how they work. I will do the drill trick too.

 

[sle2115]

Gary, you better get a motorcraft radiator too, that Rodney Red isn't OE. (send it to me, non-OE is a passion of mine!)