No Power below 2000 rpm

JohnZ

Full Access Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2010
Posts
56
Reaction score
0
Location
Utah
Well, it has been three years. I was all gangbusters to get my truck built up, but then life happens... My father in law fought then lost a battle with Pancreatic cancer, then my brother in law passed away the following year and a lot of other life events occurred. So a lot of lower priority projects got put on the back burner. Fast forward three years later, and I pulled my truck and our travel trailer out of storage. Hmmm. 2010 tags updated to 2014 tags. So perhaps in storage a bit longer than I thought.

Anyway, I was surprised that even after all that time, the truck actually started up first try and ran pretty decent. At least that is what I thought at first. So we get loaded up and head up Little Cottonwood Canyon. It seemed to pull O.K. as long as I kept it up above 2500 rpm. But if I hit a hill that brought the rpm down to 2000 rpm, it was like putting the brake pedal to the floor while keeping the throttle on the floor. Tons of black smoke, engine bogged down big time. Even downshifting to first gear did not help. I had to pull off the side of the road and put it into 4wd low gear to continue up the hill. Not sure what the grade was, but I nearly got stuck in the middle of the road. A couple of days later I ran down the hill and on the way back up with the truck empty, I had to manually shift down to 2nd gear up the canyon to keep the engine from bogging down empty. The salt on the wound was when we arrived at our camp site. While still in 4wd low gear, I got stuck backing up hill into our camp space. The engine just bogged down and did not move the truck at all. It bellowed a LOT of black smoke and started smoking under the hood. I sat there for a few minutes to let things cool down and tried again. At a snails pace it finally backed up the hill. It took me nearly an hour to get backed up and lined up with taking a few shots (we arrived after dark) to get the trailer in blind. But it should have only taken a few minutes if the truck could have backed up with any speed faster than 0.1 mph.

So, I am thinking that something is up with the Turbo. Tons of black smoke with low engine power makes me think that I was not getting enough air into the engine for the fuel delivered.

Here are some details since I am certain someone will ask.

94 crew cab long bed 4x4 (8600 lbs empty going over the gravel pit scales)
4.11 gears
7.3L factory turbo
e4OD transmission
IP and Injectors rebuilt and installed by Gillette Diesel Performance perhaps 2-3000 miles ago
New fuel filter installed about 500 miles ago
Oil changed and transmission flushed about 1000 miles ago
Standard #2 pump fuel with healthy dose of Lucas diesel additive (I ran both tanks empty before trip to burn off old fuel, and put in half a bottle each tank before putting in to storage filled up to the brim to prevent condensation)
New brakes, drums, disks, rear cylinders and master cylinder (hydroboost upgrade planned though)
New stock size Michellin AT2 tires

Not sure what else to add to the list. I have had problems pulling hills since I bought the truck 6 or 7 years ago. I do have a timing meter which I picked up off of eBay a few years back and timed it to the recommended 9.5 degrees BTDC if I remember right, but have not checked the timing this year. I have a spare camshaft to get ground by TYP4 and was getting ready to ship it off three years ago when life events changed my plans. So I need to get that out of the garage loft to ship in, but feel that I really need to figure out what is going on before I go and start swapping out major parts like a camshaft if there is something else going on that would just continue being a problem afterwards.

So, where should I start. I did pick up a boost gauge which I need to install to see what is going on there. And I have the timing meter to double check the timing. But where else should I be looking?

Oh, now that I think of it, the truck was acting like the transmission had the torque converter locked up when in the lower two gears, and again when putting it into reverse. I printed out the e4OD lockup mod wiring diagrams and plan on doing the Locked - Auto - Unlocked mod, but figured that I would start a troubleshooting thread to seek the sage advice of those more knowledgeable than I.

Thank you everyone in advance. - John Z
 

OLDBULL8

Good Morning Ya'll.
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Posts
9,923
Reaction score
338
Location
Delphos , Ohio
First thing I would do is check the air flow to the turbo, being in storage for so long, maybe some critter built a nest in the air intake or the filter is really dirty.. All that black smoke, tells me not enough air. If you have under hood insulation, it's possible that could be sucked down into the air intake, had it happened to me.
 

JohnZ

Full Access Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2010
Posts
56
Reaction score
0
Location
Utah
Thanks OldBull I'll check that out and report back. I am thinking of putting a dial indicator on the turbo shaft to check runout and since it has been sitting for three years finding some place around here to get a new fuel filter to put on it. I also need to get a pre-filter / separator with a clear bowl to catch and see if any junk is coming from the tanks.

John Z


P.S. Love your "Flash" signature quote.
 

typ4

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2005
Posts
9,113
Reaction score
1,395
Location
Newberg,OR
Im guessing that prefilter idea is a good one, you may have a load of algae. I have a bunch of uhaul fuel filters I would gladly pass on at cost they were cheap and your going to need some. Believe it or not ,fuel starvation can cause black smoke as the pump is calling for fuel and when it gets some its mixed with air and a mess.
 

JohnZ

Full Access Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2010
Posts
56
Reaction score
0
Location
Utah
Typ4 - PM Sent.

Update: I went out with a flashlight to check the intake. Everything was clean with no critters. The filter was a little dusty, but nothing to worry about. I probably only have 500 miles on the filter.

What does worry me was the turbo. Since it was dark I did not put a dial indicator on it, but I could EASILY push the turbine side to side so that it rubbed against the housing. I would guess at least .030" side to side play in the turbine shaft. It did not seem to have in / out play, but significant side to side play. Is that normal?

So, I think that I probably need a new turbo. It looks like there was an ATS Aurora 2000 turbo upgrade but those are not available any longer. I would like to install an upgraded turbo if there is such a thing that bolts on to the factory turbo pipes. My goal is for improved low end torque not high end HP.

I need a truck that is reliable and can haul a total estimated truck and trailer weight of about 18,000 lbs without getting bogged down (we are talking below 5 mph here) on any hill steeper than a 6 or 8 percent grade. Right now, if the engine drops to 2000 rpm, it is like stomping on the brakes.

Thanks - John Z
 

The Warden

MiB Impersonator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2005
Posts
7,356
Reaction score
35
Location
Fog Bless Pacifica (CA)
What does worry me was the turbo. Since it was dark I did not put a dial indicator on it, but I could EASILY push the turbine side to side so that it rubbed against the housing. I would guess at least .030" side to side play in the turbine shaft. It did not seem to have in / out play, but significant side to side play. Is that normal?
There is nothing normal about that...my money's on a bad turbo. Russ (typ4) is the guy to talk to ;Sweet

{added in edit} Three questions...first, was the inside of the turbo intake housing oily at all when you inspected the turbine wheel? Second, how certain are you that you were blowing black smoke and not blue smoke? Third, what's your oil consumption like?
 
Last edited:

icanfixall

Official GMM hand model
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Posts
25,858
Reaction score
673
Location
West coast
You seem to have a fuel starvation iuuse as posted. Replacing the fuel filter now and cutting it open will tell you if alge is the issue. I'm hopeful its not alge. Thats a hard mess to clean out once its been killed. It ruins filters very fast. Replacing the fuel filter and filling it with cheap auto tran fluid. Running the engine till it runs smooth and the engine sound changes. Then shutting down and letting it sit like that overnite usually cleans out a gummed up injection pump. Also knowing the pump is timed properly will make a huge differance in how the engine runs. Very sorry to read about how lifes issues get in the way. Hopefully your family is on the mend and happy with life now. We can't go back but we sure can live on and remember.
 

JohnZ

Full Access Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2010
Posts
56
Reaction score
0
Location
Utah
Let's see if this works or not. Below is a picture I took inside the turbo intake. I stuck an indicator on the shaft and measured .002" play inline with the shaft and .027" side to side. In the picture you can see that the turbine looks sand blasted and the housing looks like the turbine has been scraping, but for all I know that could be marks from milling during manufacturing.

I am going to get that boost gauge I bought 3 years ago installed finally and see what this thing actually puts out. I've got a 2 mile long 6-8% grade hill a mile from the house with a 55mph speed limit, so that should give me a good run to see if anything is happening. I'll update with my findings later tonight.

P.S. I will be getting a new fuel filter soon, but have to run the one I've got until then. Also looking into getting an auxiliary separator / filter. I may take it off to see what it looks like depending on my time today.


You must be registered for see images attach
 

icanfixall

Official GMM hand model
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Posts
25,858
Reaction score
673
Location
West coast
When these turbo fans get up and running they spin as fast as 120,000 rpm. Thats 2000 rpm per second. They are supported on an oil wedge built up in the direction of rotation. All bearing like this run on the same oil wedge. Also the shaft centers itself on the bearing by the oil being pumped thru it.
 

oregon96psd

Full Access Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Posts
669
Reaction score
136
Location
Kuna, ID
If you can push the wheel into the housing to the point where it rubs, the turbo needs to be rebuilt. That may or may not be the problem, but its a good idea to replace the trashed turbo before it starts causing real problems. The wavy curved leading edges on your wheel also look like they have been eating dirt, might want to check your intake system for leaks. Your wastegate isn't stuck open is it?
 

JohnZ

Full Access Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2010
Posts
56
Reaction score
0
Location
Utah
I got the boost gauge installed today. Temporarily I just connected the line for the gauge by disconnecting the line going to the wastegate effectively disabling it. As far as I could tell the wastegate works and is closed as gentle compressed low psi air opens the wastegate and it closes quickly once removed.

I met obn member thx997303 today. Apparently he lives only a few miles down the road. He brought his 90 crew cab with a 7.3l Turbo over to get his truck timed. He has the ATS kit while I have the Ford kit, but it looked like the turbos were exactly the same. So we hooked up the meter and no RPM reading at all. It indicated when #1 was pulsing fuel, but no RPM. So we then cleaned up the harmonic balancer. This time, it worked perfectly. Additionally, it turns out that his timing by ear was pretty darn close. The meter indicated his timing as 8.4 BTDC at 2000 rpm. Close enough to me, so we left it at that then spent the next couple of hours shooting the breeze, talking IDI diesels, welding and other hobbies.

After he left and I got something to eat for dinner, I finished up the boost gauge install. I need to find a permanent location for the meter, but for a test drive, I just sat it on top of the dash.

Off for a test drive.

Using the brakes to introduce load and control RPM, I did a few up hill runs to see what boost the turbo was putting out. Then I took it out on the highway for some additional brake loading tests on a larger hill plus some all out pulls downshifted pegged to the governor go pedal mashed to the floor then applied brakes to introduce additional load (and to start slowing down for my exit) This is what I found ...

Below 1800 rpm, no boost at all, even floored with brakes limiting speed, rpm and going up hill - At least the needle barely left the rectangle under the "0", so perhaps 1-2 psi MAX. Pretty much no matter what I did, the boost needle never showed any indication of moving until I hit 1800 - 2000 rpm. All of the below measurements were by repeating a number of different techniques, hills, using the brakes to induce artificial load, downshifting etc. the measurements are the highest I could get the boost.

At 2000 rpm - 2 psi MAX
At 2500 rpm - 5 psi MAX
At 3200 rpm - 7 psi MAX
At 3500 rpm - 8 psi, possibly just a little bit more

So, above 2000 rpm, the turbo is actually making some boost. Reading other threads, it sounds like 7 psi boost with a stock turbo may be about right. For those who have a stock turbo and a boost gauge, does the above sound normal?

I will be getting a new fuel filter soon and will cut up the old one to see what is inside. I am also in discussions to pick up a pre-filter / separator, and getting a custom turbo from Typ4. The main reason for doing all these tests with my current turbo are to get a baseline and determine if that is where my problem really is.

Instead of timing my own truck today, I chose to spend the time with thx997303 and get his truck timed today. I will get the meter hooked up and report back where it is. Unless it changed, I did have it right at 8.6 degrees BTDC a month before I put the truck into storage three years ago. But I will check it again. It does idle and run smoothly. It just is a gutless wimp below 2k rpm, and seeing the boost to rpm today, I can see why it pulls the way it does.

The other item I need to get figured out. The transmission occasionally locks the TC when putting it into gear and often when putting it into reverse, and basically ALL the time when towing a load up a hill with OD turned off and needing to downshift from 3rd to 2nd. If I am at a stop, hit the gas but use the brakes to keep the truck still the engine can rev up to 1600 - 1800 rpm (TQ Stall Speed?) before bogging down. However at the times where I feel the TQ is locking up when I put it into gear, the engine bogs down to below 500 rpm, the truck lurches a couple of times like I pulled the clutch out too fast on a manual while in idle then the engine dies. When towing, up hill in this condition, the engine will bog down and decelerate from 2000 rpm down below 1000 rpm, even if manually shifting down into 1st gear. That is the tow condition when I have to pull over and put the transfer case from 2wd to 4wd low in order to continue up the hill. I am hoping that the transmission lockup wiring modifications will fix this. I am hoping that this is a sensor or computer problem and not a mechanical one inside of the torque converter.

I think that I have checked out everything others have suggested other than the fuel filter which I need to get a replacement for first.

JohnZ
 

JohnZ

Full Access Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2010
Posts
56
Reaction score
0
Location
Utah
There is nothing normal about that...my money's on a bad turbo. Russ (typ4) is the guy to talk to ;Sweet

{added in edit} Three questions...first, was the inside of the turbo intake housing oily at all when you inspected the turbine wheel? Second, how certain are you that you were blowing black smoke and not blue smoke? Third, what's your oil consumption like?

1 - Other than the entrance to the turbine, no oil that I could see. The PCV going into the intake seems to cause a lot of oil inside the intake.
2 - Definatly black smoke. Actually it can range from grey to dark black. I have looked for blue but not seen it.
3 - I think that I have only put about 5k miles on the truck since I bought it. Changed the oil every couple of years use just for good measure and have needed to top off perhaps 1/2 quart every 1000 miles or so. I am using Mobil 1. Don't remember the exact mix but it was recommended by a couple diesel shops / mechanics. I have a 5 quart jug behind the back seat. Been using the same jug to top off since I bought the truck.
 

JohnZ

Full Access Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2010
Posts
56
Reaction score
0
Location
Utah
You seem to have a fuel starvation iuuse as posted. Replacing the fuel filter now and cutting it open will tell you if alge is the issue. I'm hopeful its not alge. Thats a hard mess to clean out once its been killed. It ruins filters very fast. Replacing the fuel filter and filling it with cheap auto tran fluid. Running the engine till it runs smooth and the engine sound changes. Then shutting down and letting it sit like that overnite usually cleans out a gummed up injection pump. Also knowing the pump is timed properly will make a huge differance in how the engine runs. Very sorry to read about how lifes issues get in the way. Hopefully your family is on the mend and happy with life now. We can't go back but we sure can live on and remember.

I am hoping that this may be as simple as a fuel starvation issue. As soon as I can get a new fuel filter, I will get that swapped out and follow your instructions. The last time I had a gunked up filter, I lost all power from down low and could not even rev the engine up while in park. I had a bit of water at that time too.

Thanks. Our family is on the mends and are getting on with life once again. I appreciate the sentiments. - John Z
 

thx997303

Full Access Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Posts
259
Reaction score
1
Location
utah
It was nice to meet you today, and thanks for the help verifying my timing. I bet hitting so close by ear was more luck than anything, but nice to happen. I didn't want to mess with the IP when it was hot, and I figure you didn't either.

If I get my boost gauge on soon, I'll let you know what mine shows, but I have the larger downpipe, so it may be different.
 

OLDBULL8

Good Morning Ya'll.
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Posts
9,923
Reaction score
338
Location
Delphos , Ohio
In -out turbo shaft play is OK as long as it's not excessive, it's the side play that kills them, you have way to much, time for a rebuild. typ4 can do it.
 
Top