Engine clatter

[Brian VT]

Good stuff.
Yes. I can get it to throw black smoke if I give it extra throttle when climbing a hill, etc.
Thank you for the explanation of how the injectors work. That could be the source of the noise that I'm questioning. My question now is do the injectors make more noise when the engine is under load vs just revving the engine in neutral?

I haven't been able to get a video because we got a snow storm and I don't want to drive this truck in all the salt and crap they put on the roads. It has no rust and I'd like to keep it that way.

 

[Fixnstuff]

>snip

Just 5-10 seconds on the GP button.
It smokes (white) and stinks like crazy while warming up (my neighbors are gonna love me when it's warm enough to have house windows open) but no smoke once I am driving. And it seems to start, drive, and restart just fine.

[/QUOTE]
'GP button?
My truck, 1987 (in my signature) DOES NOT SMOKE AT ALL ON START UP OR WARM UP. WHY?
BECAUSE: my truck has the originally designed solid state controller which was introduced in the 1987 model 6.9 liter trucks. It's sometimes called the 7.3 IDI style controller. 7.3L engines replaced the 6.9L in 1988. The C-6 transmissions were discontinued for the 1988 model year also but were available by special order until 1997.
This controller was designed and patented by engineers at IH/Navistar to reduce diesel emissions (pollution) and eliminate the ugly stinky diesel smoke on start-up/warm-up. With all good glow plugs and properly wired it works perfectly in my opinion. As well as can be done.
THERE IS NO WAY, that a human being pushing a glow plug button can match the intelligence built into the solid state controller. I have studied all three of the IH/NAVISTAR glow plug controller patents so I know what this controller does and I am extremely happy with it. It's actually quite an intelligent device.
PERSONALLY I can thank my lucky stars that the Button Hackers didn't get to my truck and butcher my solid state glow plug controller wiring before I bought the truck.
WHY do they do that? I think that they encounter an electrical issue of some sort in the glow plug circuits (maybe starts with just a couple of old dead glow plugs) and a problem they can't isolate or diagnose due to lack of knowledge, no manual, no wiring diagrams or ability to read and understand them etc. and reading posts from other people with apparently the same level of expertise and thought: OH YEAH, ONE PUSH BUTTON WILL FIX IT!. And then they make a MESS.
Oh yeah, maybe they can't afford to buy a new replacement controller. THAT is actually a legitimate excuse, except it would be better to somehow earn and save some extra money to buy the controller (and all new glow plugs if needed). THIS controller actually PROTECTS your Beru ZD9 glow plugs from burning out. I've also studied the Beru Glow Plug Patents, and their (formerly) patented design/technology including the materials science is also very impressive.

It's very nice to get into my truck, turn the key to 'ON" wait until the WTS light goes out and it starts on the first revolution and everything related to glow plugs, out door temperatures, start-up/warm up and reducing smoke and harmful emissions takes care of itself. Even after it's been sitting and not started for a few months.

I live in a densely populated urban area with narrow streets and parking close to neighbors. Most do not have air conditioning and in the summer their windows and doors are open, day and night. They also have barbecues and birthday parties for their kids or visiting grandmothers etc. and IMAGINE how welcome I would be if my truck was rolling coal into their bedrooms and kitchens and across their yard picnics and barbecue gatherings.
The solid state controller helps me to preserve my reputation as a good and respectful neighbor too.

Since YOU mentioned this smoke issue and neighbors, you might want to remove the push button and go back to the correct solid state controller for your truck which is why I commented on it..

 

[Fixnstuff]

.... My question now is do the injectors make more noise when the engine is under load vs just revving the engine in neutral?

Let me approach this from a different perspective.
What changes when it's in gear driving under load?
APPLIED TORQUE. That is the force of the turning of the engine, transmission and drive train to the rear axle (and then to the wheels) IT'S THE TWISTING MOTION OF THE ENGINE AND DRIVE TRAIN when you put it in gear and drive against the load. The engine AND transmission will twist and MOVE in a twisting direction. What is it twisting against? THE RUBBER on the motor mounts, transmission mounts AND in the hanger bearing about half way down the drive shaft.

IF the rubber in the hanger bearing is shot, it will make noise from vibration. ALSO if the rubber is deteriorated or torn at any of the other mounts mentioned you could be getting noises from any of those areas.

I haven't heard the noise so I don't know what it sounds like.
At some point you'll have to start doing some actual diagnostic testing to rule out various possible causes.
DO YOU HAVE A MANUAL FOR THIS TRUCK YET???

 

[Farmer Rock]

'GP button?
My truck, 1987 (in my signature) DOES NOT SMOKE AT ALL ON START UP OR WARM UP. WHY?
BECAUSE: my truck has the originally designed solid state controller which was introduced in the 1987 model 6.9 liter trucks. It's sometimes called the 7.3 IDI style controller. 7.3L engines replaced the 6.9L in 1988. The C-6 transmissions were discontinued for the 1988 model year also but were available by special order until 1997.
This controller was designed and patented by engineers at IH/Navistar to reduce diesel emissions (pollution) and eliminate the ugly stinky diesel smoke on start-up/warm-up. With all good glow plugs and properly wired it works perfectly in my opinion. As well as can be done.
THERE IS NO WAY, that a human being pushing a glow plug button can match the intelligence built into the solid state controller. I have studied all three of the IH/NAVISTAR glow plug controller patents so I know what this controller does and I am extremely happy with it. It's actually quite an intelligent device.
PERSONALLY I can thank my lucky stars that the Button Hackers didn't get to my truck and butcher my solid state glow plug controller wiring before I bought the truck.
WHY do they do that? I think that they encounter an electrical issue of some sort in the glow plug circuits (maybe starts with just a couple of old dead glow plugs) and a problem they can't isolate or diagnose due to lack of knowledge, no manual, no wiring diagrams or ability to read and understand them etc. and reading posts from other people with apparently the same level of expertise and thought: OH YEAH, ONE PUSH BUTTON WILL FIX IT!. And then they make a MESS.
Oh yeah, maybe they can't afford to buy a new replacement controller. THAT is actually a legitimate excuse, except it would be better to somehow earn and save some extra money to buy the controller (and all new glow plugs if needed). THIS controller actually PROTECTS your Beru ZD9 glow plugs from burning out. I've also studied the Beru Glow Plug Patents, and their (formerly) patented design/technology including the materials science is also very impressive.

It's very nice to get into my truck, turn the key to 'ON" wait until the WTS light goes out and it starts on the first revolution and everything related to glow plugs, out door temperatures, start-up/warm up and reducing smoke and harmful emissions takes care of itself. Even after it's been sitting and not started for a few months.

I live in a densely populated urban area with narrow streets and parking close to neighbors. Most do not have air conditioning and in the summer their windows and doors are open, day and night. They also have barbecues and birthday parties for their kids or visiting grandmothers etc. and IMAGINE how welcome I would be if my truck was rolling coal into their bedrooms and kitchens and across their yard picnics and barbecue gatherings.
The solid state controller helps me to preserve my reputation as a good and respectful neighbor too.

Since YOU mentioned this smoke issue and neighbors, you might want to remove the push button and go back to the correct solid state controller for your truck which is why I commented on it..
[/QUOTE]
I will be the first to say it is such a luxury to have a working gp controller and let the truck do it's thing every morning.... However, there is a lot of misconception in your post.
1. If you can count to 10 manual gps are no problem.
2. The intelligence you speak of is matched simply by looking at the temp gauge. If it is not up to temp, cycle the glow plugs. If it is up to temp, just start it. Pretty simple really.
3. Like you said, controllers are expensive, and when they go will take out the glow plugs.
4. What the heck kind of smoke is your truck putting out that you are afraid it will gas out the neighbors every morning? Out of the 5 IDIs I have had, the 3 trucks with manual gps never smoked any more than the 2 trucks running the factory controllers. In fact, I notice less smoke with manual gps IF you afterglow for a couple seconds like the controller.
5. the main reason most folks switch to manual gps when the controller goes bad, is because it is ridiculously cheap and simple. All it requires is $30 for a switch and relay. Wire it to the wts light, for kicks.
6. It has absolutely nothing to do with lack of knowledge.....on our end anyway.



Rock

 

[Brian VT]

At some point you'll have to start doing some actual diagnostic testing to rule out various possible causes.
DO YOU HAVE A MANUAL FOR THIS TRUCK YET???

I have both shop manuals.
Like I said from the start of this post, the sound may be normal. I've never had a diesel.
I don't think having the shop manuals is relevant unless this sound is indicative of a problem.

Do the injectors normally make more noise when the engine is under load vs just revving the engine in neutral?

 

[Fixnstuff]

I forgot that you have a 4 wheel drive truck. I don't have any experience with Ford Truck 4WD front ends. All I've ever owned in a full size 4WD is a 1983 full size Jeep Cherokee, having a full frame, manual lockouts the last year of the full size Cherokees which were REAL TRUCKS in most respects other than perhaps body style. THEY WERE THE REAL DEAL 4WD, DESIGNED FROM THE GROUND UP AS 4WD = BETTER THAN 4WD PICKUP TRUCKS. I've had everything on that vehicle turned inside out as far as repair work goes including the transfer case (close to 400K miles on it when I sold it). I had a full sized Jeep Wagoneer, mid 1970's with a 360 V8. Everything else 4WD was smaller and not even close to a Ford IDI 4WD. So with regard to the front end on a Ford IDI 4WD I have no more knowledge than what I pick up here and there at these truck forums. If your issue is related to front end, front differential or transfer case I don't think I can help.

 

[Brian VT]

I can't imagine what 4WD would have to do with engine clatter, but thanks for your time.

 

[Farmer Rock]

I have both shop manuals.
Like I said from the start of this post, the sound may be normal. I've never had a diesel.
I don't think having the shop manuals is relevant unless this sound is indicative of a problem.

Do the injectors normally make more noise when the engine is under load vs just revving the engine in neutral?

Yes, they do make more noise to a point. I am assuming when you say under load, you just mean driving around? It's really hard to say without hearing it. It could very well be that you aren't used to the noise, or timing is out of whack like was already mentioned.
I don't see how 4wd has anything to do with this. Does your cold timing advance work? If so, you probably noticed how clanky it sounds when it's on. As long as the sound you are hearing while driving isn't that loud, it's probably normally what you are hearing.


Rock

 

[Brian VT]

I would guess that my cold timing advance is not working because there is no clatter until I'm driving.

 

[Big Bart]

'GP button?
My truck, 1987 (in my signature) DOES NOT SMOKE AT ALL ON START UP OR WARM UP. WHY?
BECAUSE: my truck has the originally designed solid state controller which was introduced in the 1987 model 6.9 liter trucks. It's sometimes called the 7.3 IDI style controller. 7.3L engines replaced the 6.9L in 1988. The C-6 transmissions were discontinued for the 1988 model year also but were available by special order until 1997.
This controller was designed and patented by engineers at IH/Navistar to reduce diesel emissions (pollution) and eliminate the ugly stinky diesel smoke on start-up/warm-up. With all good glow plugs and properly wired it works perfectly in my opinion. As well as can be done.
THERE IS NO WAY, that a human being pushing a glow plug button can match the intelligence built into the solid state controller. I have studied all three of the IH/NAVISTAR glow plug controller patents so I know what this controller does and I am extremely happy with it. It's actually quite an intelligent device.
PERSONALLY I can thank my lucky stars that the Button Hackers didn't get to my truck and butcher my solid state glow plug controller wiring before I bought the truck.
WHY do they do that? I think that they encounter an electrical issue of some sort in the glow plug circuits (maybe starts with just a couple of old dead glow plugs) and a problem they can't isolate or diagnose due to lack of knowledge, no manual, no wiring diagrams or ability to read and understand them etc. and reading posts from other people with apparently the same level of expertise and thought: OH YEAH, ONE PUSH BUTTON WILL FIX IT!. And then they make a MESS.
Oh yeah, maybe they can't afford to buy a new replacement controller. THAT is actually a legitimate excuse, except it would be better to somehow earn and save some extra money to buy the controller (and all new glow plugs if needed). THIS controller actually PROTECTS your Beru ZD9 glow plugs from burning out. I've also studied the Beru Glow Plug Patents, and their (formerly) patented design/technology including the materials science is also very impressive.

It's very nice to get into my truck, turn the key to 'ON" wait until the WTS light goes out and it starts on the first revolution and everything related to glow plugs, out door temperatures, start-up/warm up and reducing smoke and harmful emissions takes care of itself. Even after it's been sitting and not started for a few months.

I live in a densely populated urban area with narrow streets and parking close to neighbors. Most do not have air conditioning and in the summer their windows and doors are open, day and night. They also have barbecues and birthday parties for their kids or visiting grandmothers etc. and IMAGINE how welcome I would be if my truck was rolling coal into their bedrooms and kitchens and across their yard picnics and barbecue gatherings.
The solid state controller helps me to preserve my reputation as a good and respectful neighbor too.

Since YOU mentioned this smoke issue and neighbors, you might want to remove the push button and go back to the correct solid state controller for your truck which is why I commented on it..
[/QUOTE]

Fixin stuff I am like you. I prefer to fix what is broken, not by pass it. Yes it is harder at times, potentially it can cost more, but it also makes you a better mechanic to take the time to understand how the factory intended for it to work. Then test, diagnose, and fix what is not working. Fix it so it works as the engineers at Ford/NAVSTAR intended. As you mentioned they learned a lot from the first GP system and built a better mousetrap on version 2.0. (Won’t stick on, cycles to keep them warm after the WTS light goes out, figures out when 3-4 glow plugs have died, runs your wait to start light, automatically runs the warm up process at key on, etc.)

Many risk covering up/mask bad wiring, dead glow plugs, or other issues putting in a aftermarket GP switch or switch and solenoid. Next owner will have to figure out their work as it won’t be in the factory wiring diagram. Something brought up as challenging by new members, PO’s who altered/customized their trucks.

No judgement on those who do for various reasons stated above. Just not how I like to roll.

 

[ih8minimumwage]

OP, have you watched any videos on the ol' YT of IDIs? That should give you a good idea on what you'll hear driving and compare if what you're hearing is normal.

As far as timing; too retarded will sound like a gas engine and too advanced will sound like a Powerstroke was always the way it was laid out to me. If you're idling smooth but getting a bit of a knock driving, I'd be looking at a leaking injector first if it turns out it's not just an unfamiliarity with the sounds your engine makes.

 

[Brian VT]

So out of all this I've taken that I might either need to get my timing adjusted (I don't have the tools yet) or that I might have a leaking injector.
This all assumes that the engine sound that I'm questioning isn't just as normal as can be.
I could grind and bend a 9/16" wrench and try to adjust my IP randomly. But I'd rather wait until I can get the other tools needed to do it properly.
How would I check for a leaking injector?

 

[IDIBRONCO]

The only way to check for a leaking injector that I know of is to pull them all and have them Pressure (pop) tested. After they fire off/pop, they shouldn't have any fuel coming out of them. If one or more does, it/they are leaking.
As for the timing, there's nothing wrong with experimenting a little bit to see if a timing adjustment makes any difference. Be sure to mark both the pump and the housing so that you will be able to put the timing back to where it is right now. The experimenting is free while the timing equipment isn't. Either way, it's your call.

 

[Brian VT]

I wondered if finding a leaking injector might be as easy as seeing fuel outside the engine. Thanks for the clarification.
I guess I'll grind/bend a wrench and mess with the timing a little bit until I can manage to get the proper equipment.
I just wish I knew what it's supposed to sound like. I could be trying to fix something that ain't broke.

Aside from that...you all here are great.
Merry Christmas and a happy, healthy, New Year to all of you.

 

[Selahdoor]

The only way to check for a leaking injector that I know of is to pull them all and have them Pressure (pop) tested. After they fire off/pop, they shouldn't have any fuel coming out of them. If one or more does, it/they are leaking.
As for the timing, there's nothing wrong with experimenting a little bit to see if a timing adjustment makes any difference. Be sure to mark both the pump and the housing so that you will be able to put the timing back to where it is right now. The experimenting is free while the timing equipment isn't. Either way, it's your call.

And I'll add to this...

In several places, people said to adjust the IP by the WIDTH of a dime, or a nickle.

That should be corrected to the THICKNESS of a dime or nickle.

Moving that pump in one shot by the width of either a dime or a nickle, is really asking for trouble.