Take your time, you don't want errors. As you know this is a heavy transmission. You only want to pull it once.
^ he ain't lying.
1998 E4OD on the outside... ...wait a minute!
- Thread starter SDEconVan
- Start date
^ he ain't lying.
Hi Mel,
Sounds good, if someone can benefit from this, all the better, I post mostly to "draw fire" and get help as I go, which TrackSpeeder has
done a lot.
Auto trans are weird science on a good day... ha ha.
I'm not committed to any one turbo, I just snooped around a little and Mr. Banks happened to answer the phone, that was impressive. I'll look into
HyperMax. One idea I will investigate is to do a remote turbo (I've done some similar work on other projects,) probably put it down by the transfer
case (as you know the heat inside the Dog House would make for one hot in-cabin Habachi
) The hard part with doing a remote turbo is to not over
lubricate it, some kind of sump or metered pump would be needed if the turbo is below the sump line. It would be good because there would be very
little plumbing on top of the valley so other work is easier. It would be great because there is a lot of room up front for an intercooler, which optimizes
the charge. I haven't verified, but using two Right Side exhaust manifolds would plumb it just about perfectly.
Hey TrackSpeeder,
Oh man, definitely not done... ...see below.
Yeah FORDF250HDXLT,
It's no joke, it seems the more parts I put back in the case, the heavier it gets! (Maybe I should leave a few parts out?)
****************************************
Well, had a VERY good conversation about adding so many frictions and stuff today.
Basically, we (the hobbyist transmission builder,) kind of blindly purchase the "best kit" we can afford and hope it covers our needs.
In talking to a pretty seasoned (and candid,) builder, I am kind of finding the same mentality I/we experienced with picking carburetors
and camshafts. For years those of us (mostly just me?) who didn't know enough about a carb, would pick the best race-proven one
and use it for my daily tasks.
In the same way, trans kits can be geared to (no pun) high performance. BUT define that high performance...
...in my discussion today, we agreed that a lot of performance kits (but definitely NOT all,) cater to, for example, quarter mile runs,
or with diesels, pulling a sled.
SO,
The mentality of putting a bunch of frictions and steels does INCREASE PERFORMANCE, getting a real solid grip on available torque. To
do this the frictions and steels have been getting THINNER and THINNER.
This is were the problem exists.
It has been recently found that thinner steels do NOT dissipate heat quickly enough when under high loads. There is just not enough
steel there for good "heat conduction" (heat travels well through a piece of steel) and there is very little re-cooled fluid pulling heat
when the stack is getting squeezed real good.
BUT,
In a sled event, or drag run, performance duration is roughly 8-10 seconds, and the heat can get out after the run.
My requirement is more like 16 hours of continuous use, with short bursts, some hills and plenty of ambient heat while running down the Baja
Peninsula.
So more thought about what and why I'm doing this stuff to my transmission is needed.
Granted, I am a hobbyist, I don't have too much transmission building experience, but my Mechanical Engineering background kinda kicks
in and says this must be considered. Also granted, there ARE companies out there who have been providing more of the durable set up
rather than handling max spike loads of torque for short amounts of time. I've just had a hard time finding those pre-packaged products
only out of ignorance.
SO,
I am modifying what I've got a little bit based upon the above discussion. If you are building a Stage 3 trans (this is almost a stage 3,)
then stick with the mods, it will be pretty good for intense bursts, and good for longer runs If you can control the heat, as heat is the
main cause for problems with the thin modified Pressure Plates developing cracks and Frictions generating debris...
******************RANT OVER*******************
My main attention for this effort is the Intermediate/Direct Drum assembly.
I am considering going from this:
To this:
Pros: thicker steels, more heat gets dumped out, thicker Pressure Plate Less prone to cracking
Cons: less friction area (Apprx 60%) means less grip, less area is more psi for given load (peak heat reached sooner*)
*an equilibrium is reached and it is lower than spike loads...
Still gonna research this but it was good to know I could produce the stack using what parts I had. That said, I am trying to get this
thicker steel set-up using Kolene/Red Eagle. If not, it will be Raybestos, which is not bad at all as a second/third choice.
(Note: the Pressure Plates are 0.340" and 0.125" thick, and I'm told builders see a LOT of the thinner plates cracking, (and frictions getting
burned up.)
Next on my re-thinking effort is the Reverse Stack.
This stack has to go into the Case to get a test fit. Reverse Piston had to go in first (using OTC compression tool)
KEEP IN MIND that the idea is not to do the fewest frictions possible but perhaps just the up-to-date number or slightly more, nothing
too extreme. More research on this should pan out what I am saying.
Using the (6) Alto (grey, 0.077",) and (4) 0.081" and (2) 0.068" steels, and pressure plate a whopping 0.550"
Reaching in the case from a couple places got them in place pretty quickly,
Finally, using a 0.072" snap ring, I got 0.021" clearance, "spec" is about 0.020-0.025
If I can accept the "quality" of the Alto greys, the clearance should make for a pretty tight reverse action.
Spiral Overdrive Snap Ring
Sometimes I just don't read directions, I grab a part and start fiddling with it,
(Shoving the start of the spiral ring into the groove, it starts to fit into the groove)
Like the expert that I'm not, I locked the ring together and heard the "click"
I MANAGED TO BREAK OFF THE LITTLE LOCKING TAB!!!
Need a new one, that simple...
(I don't do this for a living...)
Best regards,
George
Sounds good, if someone can benefit from this, all the better, I post mostly to "draw fire" and get help as I go, which TrackSpeeder has
done a lot.
Auto trans are weird science on a good day... ha ha.I'm not committed to any one turbo, I just snooped around a little and Mr. Banks happened to answer the phone, that was impressive. I'll look into
HyperMax. One idea I will investigate is to do a remote turbo (I've done some similar work on other projects,) probably put it down by the transfer
case (as you know the heat inside the Dog House would make for one hot in-cabin Habachi
) The hard part with doing a remote turbo is to not overlubricate it, some kind of sump or metered pump would be needed if the turbo is below the sump line. It would be good because there would be very
little plumbing on top of the valley so other work is easier. It would be great because there is a lot of room up front for an intercooler, which optimizes
the charge. I haven't verified, but using two Right Side exhaust manifolds would plumb it just about perfectly.
Hey TrackSpeeder,
Oh man, definitely not done... ...see below.
Yeah FORDF250HDXLT,
It's no joke, it seems the more parts I put back in the case, the heavier it gets! (Maybe I should leave a few parts out?)
****************************************
Well, had a VERY good conversation about adding so many frictions and stuff today.
Basically, we (the hobbyist transmission builder,) kind of blindly purchase the "best kit" we can afford and hope it covers our needs.
In talking to a pretty seasoned (and candid,) builder, I am kind of finding the same mentality I/we experienced with picking carburetors
and camshafts. For years those of us (mostly just me?) who didn't know enough about a carb, would pick the best race-proven one
and use it for my daily tasks.
In the same way, trans kits can be geared to (no pun) high performance. BUT define that high performance...
...in my discussion today, we agreed that a lot of performance kits (but definitely NOT all,) cater to, for example, quarter mile runs,
or with diesels, pulling a sled.
SO,
The mentality of putting a bunch of frictions and steels does INCREASE PERFORMANCE, getting a real solid grip on available torque. To
do this the frictions and steels have been getting THINNER and THINNER.
This is were the problem exists.
It has been recently found that thinner steels do NOT dissipate heat quickly enough when under high loads. There is just not enough
steel there for good "heat conduction" (heat travels well through a piece of steel) and there is very little re-cooled fluid pulling heat
when the stack is getting squeezed real good.
BUT,
In a sled event, or drag run, performance duration is roughly 8-10 seconds, and the heat can get out after the run.
My requirement is more like 16 hours of continuous use, with short bursts, some hills and plenty of ambient heat while running down the Baja
Peninsula.
So more thought about what and why I'm doing this stuff to my transmission is needed.
Granted, I am a hobbyist, I don't have too much transmission building experience, but my Mechanical Engineering background kinda kicks
in and says this must be considered. Also granted, there ARE companies out there who have been providing more of the durable set up
rather than handling max spike loads of torque for short amounts of time. I've just had a hard time finding those pre-packaged products
only out of ignorance.
SO,
I am modifying what I've got a little bit based upon the above discussion. If you are building a Stage 3 trans (this is almost a stage 3,)
then stick with the mods, it will be pretty good for intense bursts, and good for longer runs If you can control the heat, as heat is the
main cause for problems with the thin modified Pressure Plates developing cracks and Frictions generating debris...
******************RANT OVER*******************
My main attention for this effort is the Intermediate/Direct Drum assembly.
I am considering going from this:
You must be registered for see images attach
To this:
You must be registered for see images attach
Pros: thicker steels, more heat gets dumped out, thicker Pressure Plate Less prone to cracking
Cons: less friction area (Apprx 60%) means less grip, less area is more psi for given load (peak heat reached sooner*)
*an equilibrium is reached and it is lower than spike loads...
Still gonna research this but it was good to know I could produce the stack using what parts I had. That said, I am trying to get this
thicker steel set-up using Kolene/Red Eagle. If not, it will be Raybestos, which is not bad at all as a second/third choice.
(Note: the Pressure Plates are 0.340" and 0.125" thick, and I'm told builders see a LOT of the thinner plates cracking, (and frictions getting
burned up.)
Next on my re-thinking effort is the Reverse Stack.
This stack has to go into the Case to get a test fit. Reverse Piston had to go in first (using OTC compression tool)
You must be registered for see images attach
You must be registered for see images attach
KEEP IN MIND that the idea is not to do the fewest frictions possible but perhaps just the up-to-date number or slightly more, nothing
too extreme. More research on this should pan out what I am saying.
Using the (6) Alto (grey, 0.077",) and (4) 0.081" and (2) 0.068" steels, and pressure plate a whopping 0.550"
You must be registered for see images attach
You must be registered for see images attach
Reaching in the case from a couple places got them in place pretty quickly,
You must be registered for see images attach
Finally, using a 0.072" snap ring, I got 0.021" clearance, "spec" is about 0.020-0.025
You must be registered for see images attach
If I can accept the "quality" of the Alto greys, the clearance should make for a pretty tight reverse action.
Spiral Overdrive Snap Ring
Sometimes I just don't read directions, I grab a part and start fiddling with it,
You must be registered for see images attach
(Shoving the start of the spiral ring into the groove, it starts to fit into the groove)
Like the expert that I'm not, I locked the ring together and heard the "click"
You must be registered for see images attach
I MANAGED TO BREAK OFF THE LITTLE LOCKING TAB!!!
Need a new one, that simple...
(I don't do this for a living...)
Best regards,
George
I offer this only as a career mechanic that has done 2 E4OD's and hundreds of c6's. the thick pressure plate is a good idea, use as many of the thinner frictions and steels with the thick plate, works good. the thin pressure plate is more of a problem than the thin steels.
Keep the oil cool. Use synthetic fluid ,IMO it helps with heat. With airport tugs in high heat areas this saved them. Just some experience sharing.
Great build, the last one I did was before all the upgrades were available, my how times have changed.
Keep the oil cool. Use synthetic fluid ,IMO it helps with heat. With airport tugs in high heat areas this saved them. Just some experience sharing.
Great build, the last one I did was before all the upgrades were available, my how times have changed.
trackspeeder
Stone crusher.
When machining to accept a thicker clutch pack. You will remove about .020 - .050 of material depending on the plate. That will not hurt it one bit. When you go .060+ then their might be problems. Some people like to over stuff the clutch packs. Might be good on a track, not on a street.
Thanks Typ4,
You are right in line with the thinking of several other Tranmission Builders I've spoken to... ...a cracked Pressure Plate is one of the main things they pull out of failed transmissions amongst other things. The general consensus is to keep some beef in the pressure plate, then get the best frictions within budget of the build.
I'll look into synthetics but will probably start off with Mercon V only because the system will probably blow a gut someplace during shakedown, and it will make me even more sad seeing my synthetic running down the gutter That said, anything that will help manage the heat is worth it- so it will be part of the list once things get going.
"my how times have changed..." <--with the internet, I can learn from experts, literally watch transmissions getting built, access manuals, ask questions, and buy parts and have them at my door step when I get home from work... ("changed" is putting it mildly! it's another world man!)
And remember: "If a bonehead like me can attempt it... well..."
Hi TrackSpeeder,
Yes, flycutting is the best way to optimize clearances, that fine tuning really comes into play when chasing that last 5% of performance. One thing got me
nervous was the Direct Drive Power Pack (going from 5 frictions to a whopping 8 frictions,) the pressure plate they supplied was 1/8 inch thick!!!
I don't see a benefit as to where my build is going, but I DO see a possible liability!
*****************************
Ordered some parts to progress things, like a 45 element sprag on the Direct (which I will go over when it comes in.) Oh, and a new Spiral Snap Ring, since mine
is in two pieces
Reverse goes into the Case
Tonight I went after getting the final stack for Reverse, after talking to several guys I think the 6 Alto/Steel combo with a beefy Pressure Plate will do me right:
Typical figuring:
(Once I knew a good stack height, I started messing with different combos of frictions/steels/pressures, there's probably a program that does this but it helped me appreciate the process more.)
Reverse can take a pounding especially when shifting rapidly like when stuck in sand, but it sounds like the frictions I'm going with should hold- the spike loads on the Pressure Plate are a concern since I no longer have a wavy spacer in the stack, plus a shift kit with boost valve.
Into the case:
First ones into the case, the Return Spring and Inner Race
25 Ft-Lbs.
Note on the Inner Race there is a fluid passage that needs to line up with a passage in the case (see little hole on race.) It turns out the bolt pattern forces this to happen as the Inner Race can only bolt in ONE WAY (holes are offset just enough like on flywheels and flex plates.)
(see little piece of tape I stuck showing the fluid port)
Managed to get the ends of the snap ring under some slots, not sure if this matters. Note there is no selective snap ring offered for reverse, not sure if a HD one is available, I used the old one.
Lubed Output Shaft ready to go in. See the thrust washer held in place with blue assembly grease- that is good stuff, really tacky to hold parts, but melts at only 130F so it won't clog anything up once the transmission is running.
NOTE: NO BUSHINGS WERE REPLACED, THEY ALL WERE NEW/PERFECT (fresh rebuild) IT IS HIGHLY RECOMMENDED THAT ALL POSSIBLE BUSHINGS BE REMOVED AND REPLACED DURING A THOROUGH REBUILD. INFORMATION ON HOW TO DO THIS IS ALL OVER THE INTERNET! Pay particular attention to the Output Bushing and Front Pump bushings.
Output shaft and Park gear in place. (Notice up close there is a snap ring in front of the gear
My mistake, I was following the ATSG steps, and a circlip goes there on the 2wd's. This is a 4x4 transmission... ...so I pulled it out and took off the ring. No big deal.
Reverse hub settled in nicely. This is the 12 slot casted E4OD version, later 4R100's had stamped hubs with 24 slots=stronger.
(Continued.)
You are right in line with the thinking of several other Tranmission Builders I've spoken to... ...a cracked Pressure Plate is one of the main things they pull out of failed transmissions amongst other things. The general consensus is to keep some beef in the pressure plate, then get the best frictions within budget of the build.
I'll look into synthetics but will probably start off with Mercon V only because the system will probably blow a gut someplace during shakedown, and it will make me even more sad seeing my synthetic running down the gutter
That said, anything that will help manage the heat is worth it- so it will be part of the list once things get going."my how times have changed..." <--with the internet, I can learn from experts, literally watch transmissions getting built, access manuals, ask questions, and buy parts and have them at my door step when I get home from work...
("changed" is putting it mildly! it's another world man!)And remember: "If a bonehead like me can attempt it... well..."
Hi TrackSpeeder,
Yes, flycutting is the best way to optimize clearances, that fine tuning really comes into play when chasing that last 5% of performance. One thing got me
nervous was the Direct Drive Power Pack (going from 5 frictions to a whopping 8 frictions,) the pressure plate they supplied was 1/8 inch thick!!!
I don't see a benefit as to where my build is going, but I DO see a possible liability!
*****************************
Ordered some parts to progress things, like a 45 element sprag on the Direct (which I will go over when it comes in.) Oh, and a new Spiral Snap Ring, since mine
is in two pieces
Reverse goes into the Case
Tonight I went after getting the final stack for Reverse, after talking to several guys I think the 6 Alto/Steel combo with a beefy Pressure Plate will do me right:
You must be registered for see images attach
Typical figuring:
You must be registered for see images attach
(Once I knew a good stack height, I started messing with different combos of frictions/steels/pressures, there's probably a program that does this but it helped me appreciate the process more.)
Reverse can take a pounding especially when shifting rapidly like when stuck in sand, but it sounds like the frictions I'm going with should hold- the spike loads on the Pressure Plate are a concern since I no longer have a wavy spacer in the stack, plus a shift kit with boost valve.
Into the case:
You must be registered for see images attach
First ones into the case, the Return Spring and Inner Race
You must be registered for see images attach
25 Ft-Lbs.
Note on the Inner Race there is a fluid passage that needs to line up with a passage in the case (see little hole on race.) It turns out the bolt pattern forces this to happen as the Inner Race can only bolt in ONE WAY (holes are offset just enough like on flywheels and flex plates.)
You must be registered for see images attach
(see little piece of tape I stuck showing the fluid port)
You must be registered for see images attach
Managed to get the ends of the snap ring under some slots, not sure if this matters. Note there is no selective snap ring offered for reverse, not sure if a HD one is available, I used the old one.
You must be registered for see images attach
Lubed Output Shaft ready to go in. See the thrust washer held in place with blue assembly grease- that is good stuff, really tacky to hold parts, but melts at only 130F so it won't clog anything up once the transmission is running.
NOTE: NO BUSHINGS WERE REPLACED, THEY ALL WERE NEW/PERFECT (fresh rebuild) IT IS HIGHLY RECOMMENDED THAT ALL POSSIBLE BUSHINGS BE REMOVED AND REPLACED DURING A THOROUGH REBUILD. INFORMATION ON HOW TO DO THIS IS ALL OVER THE INTERNET! Pay particular attention to the Output Bushing and Front Pump bushings.
You must be registered for see images attach
Output shaft and Park gear in place. (Notice up close there is a snap ring in front of the gear
My mistake, I was following the ATSG steps, and a circlip goes there on the 2wd's. This is a 4x4 transmission... ...so I pulled it out and took off the ring. No big deal.
You must be registered for see images attach
Reverse hub settled in nicely. This is the 12 slot casted E4OD version, later 4R100's had stamped hubs with 24 slots=stronger.
(Continued.)
Last edited:
Reverse into the Case (Cont.)
The hub has a one-way sprag that needs to go onto the Inner Race that was installed earlier. I found that if I twisted the Hub while pushing down, that it would eventually find its' way onto the Inner Race. (The hub only rotates one way, clockwise looking at it into the case.)
With the hub in, I prepped the Reverse Planet Case
Blue grease and ATF are important at this point!
With the Hub and Gear in place the NEW circlip can go in place (notice the difference from the old one, replacement of this 3 dollar part is essential!)
At this point I ran out of time, but look forward to getting that clip on!
Best regards,
George
The hub has a one-way sprag that needs to go onto the Inner Race that was installed earlier. I found that if I twisted the Hub while pushing down, that it would eventually find its' way onto the Inner Race. (The hub only rotates one way, clockwise looking at it into the case.)
You must be registered for see images attach
With the hub in, I prepped the Reverse Planet Case
You must be registered for see images attach
Blue grease and ATF are important at this point!
You must be registered for see images attach
With the Hub and Gear in place the NEW circlip can go in place (notice the difference from the old one, replacement of this 3 dollar part is essential!)
You must be registered for see images attach
At this point I ran out of time, but look forward to getting that clip on!
You must be registered for see images attach
Best regards,
George
Last edited:
trackspeeder
Stone crusher.
There is no special snap ring for reverse. Use your original as you did. Your snap ring location is fine for reverse. Intermediate clutch, center support stabilizer (if done), and OD snap rings face down. This is prevent drainback issues.
jlwoods99
Registered User
How much roughly do you have in parts for this rebuild? Just curious what it'll cost me to do mine.
jim
jim
Thanks TrackSpeeder! That's good to know, I will position the snap rings to deal with drainback. Of course the Reverse Snap Ring cannot point downward because of the big open span from 5 o'clock to 7 o'clock. I appreciate the attention to details and sharing your knowledge.
Hi Jim-
Yes I plan on putting out some kind of parts list and sourcing. I'm not sure of the rules yet on this forum about mentioning vendors by name, I am not affiliated with any but have had some very helpful ones who might be good for the hobbyist vs the pro guys. I had a budget thanks to selling my Landcruiser which let me go a little more strong on the upgrades. Basically, what I end up with is a Stage 3 Diesel E4OD, or maybe a 2.5 The transmission will have a daily use and durability emphasis with light towing instead of racing or heavy pulling.
***************************************
Came home from work and some goodies were waiting. I ordered these yesterday at lunch after a talk with Mike (40 miles away, but used USPS regular flat rate) it actually surprised me, I thought, "What is that?" ha ha.
Replacement OD Cyl Spiral Snap Ring, Upgrade Sprag, and Billet Input Shaft (shorter)
Reverse into Case (Cont.)
I had enough energy this time to install the Output Shaft Snap Ring. I knew to stop last night as I could tell the thing was ready to kick my a$$, and I didn't want to end the evening like that. Musta been thinking about it at work, because I realized a third hand would be helpful to keep the Output Shaft engaged. Since I am not so equipped I had a little bungee cord,
I'm sure there's a better angle for the Trans Case but it worked well laying on it's side a bench height. I've seen the Case set vertical, resting on the output, but all that bending over to reach down into the thing made my back start aching
I also grabbed the Reverse Hub and pushed down on it (from inside) while turning it a bit. All this to best expose the annular groove for the snap ring.
Sure enough the ring went right on (really good ring pliers helped a lot)
With the Output Shaft installed, I got curious what my Shaft Endplay was, so I rigged up a dial indicator,
My welding bench is 1/4" steel, the indicator has a magnetic base.
The most I got was just about 0.020" (Not sure if this has any relevance, there's no way to control it, but with new added parts I wanted to see how the tolerances held up.) I'm gonna guess pretty good...
Reverse Planetary ready to go in, I already pulled out on the Hub it goes into. Again this is to get everything to engage as much as possible, to expose Snap Ring lands and critical shafting.
Every thrust surface and gear tooth got some blue grease and the overall parts got a coat of ATF.
Still, I could tell the Planet was in a bit shallow, so I spun it while pulling on the outer shell, eventually felt it "thunk" in a tiny amount more.
And to FURTHER engage the Reverse Planet into the Hub, I inserted a screwdriver (from the side port) into the snap ring groove of the Hub. With a "twist" of the screwdriver, I could feel the Planet go a little more into the Hub. (This is not a brute force thing, more like dentist ha ha)
If you're holding this screwdriver you'd be lightly twisting it counter-clockwise
The Reverse Snap Ring goes in pretty easy with all this setting up. Again curious, after I got the ring in place I measured the clearance (again probably no relevance,) and came up with 0.051" Not sure if it is bad or good, it just "is"... haha
(Continued...)
Hi Jim-
Yes I plan on putting out some kind of parts list and sourcing. I'm not sure of the rules yet on this forum about mentioning vendors by name, I am not affiliated with any but have had some very helpful ones who might be good for the hobbyist vs the pro guys. I had a budget thanks to selling my Landcruiser which let me go a little more strong on the upgrades. Basically, what I end up with is a Stage 3 Diesel E4OD, or maybe a 2.5
The transmission will have a daily use and durability emphasis with light towing instead of racing or heavy pulling.***************************************
Came home from work and some goodies were waiting. I ordered these yesterday at lunch after a talk with Mike (40 miles away, but used USPS regular flat rate) it actually surprised me, I thought, "What is that?" ha ha.
You must be registered for see images attach
Replacement OD Cyl Spiral Snap Ring, Upgrade Sprag, and Billet Input Shaft (shorter)
Reverse into Case (Cont.)
I had enough energy this time to install the Output Shaft Snap Ring. I knew to stop last night as I could tell the thing was ready to kick my a$$, and I didn't want to end the evening like that. Musta been thinking about it at work, because I realized a third hand would be helpful to keep the Output Shaft engaged. Since I am not so equipped I had a little bungee cord,
You must be registered for see images attach
I'm sure there's a better angle for the Trans Case but it worked well laying on it's side a bench height. I've seen the Case set vertical, resting on the output, but all that bending over to reach down into the thing made my back start aching
I also grabbed the Reverse Hub and pushed down on it (from inside) while turning it a bit. All this to best expose the annular groove for the snap ring.
Sure enough the ring went right on (really good ring pliers helped a lot)
You must be registered for see images attach
With the Output Shaft installed, I got curious what my Shaft Endplay was, so I rigged up a dial indicator,
You must be registered for see images attach
My welding bench is 1/4" steel, the indicator has a magnetic base.
You must be registered for see images attach
The most I got was just about 0.020" (Not sure if this has any relevance, there's no way to control it, but with new added parts I wanted to see how the tolerances held up.) I'm gonna guess pretty good...
You must be registered for see images attach
Reverse Planetary ready to go in, I already pulled out on the Hub it goes into. Again this is to get everything to engage as much as possible, to expose Snap Ring lands and critical shafting.
Every thrust surface and gear tooth got some blue grease and the overall parts got a coat of ATF.
You must be registered for see images attach
Still, I could tell the Planet was in a bit shallow, so I spun it while pulling on the outer shell, eventually felt it "thunk" in a tiny amount more.
You must be registered for see images attach
And to FURTHER engage the Reverse Planet into the Hub, I inserted a screwdriver (from the side port) into the snap ring groove of the Hub. With a "twist" of the screwdriver, I could feel the Planet go a little more into the Hub. (This is not a brute force thing, more like dentist
ha ha)If you're holding this screwdriver you'd be lightly twisting it counter-clockwise
You must be registered for see images attach
The Reverse Snap Ring goes in pretty easy with all this setting up. Again curious, after I got the ring in place I measured the clearance (again probably no relevance,) and came up with 0.051" Not sure if it is bad or good, it just "is"... haha
You must be registered for see images attach
(Continued...)
With Reverse in the case I could start planning the install of the Intermediate/Direct/Forward assembly...
...I got these 0.010 thick shims early in the build. Turns out they are 4-tang, and now with the 6-pinion planet, I have 3-tang
Who knows, I might not even need shims but thought they would be useful (heck, why would they produce them?) Further research
might turn up an alternative.
BUT,
again, I must have been day dreaming at work again, because I thought about what Typ4 and a few other transmission builders said,
to go thick with your Pressure Plate but try to get extra frictions and steels without too much penalty.
SO,
I tore down again,
These are all the materials I have to work with to put together "the ultimate Direct Pack" for my requirements. The most recent stack is on
the right. Note the thick 0.340" Pressure Plate.
Before, I had not quite considered what Typ4 was talking about, I was being at too extreme ends of the spectrum, but as I learned about what
would be good for my SPECIFIC BUILD, I ended up with a combo of thicker Pressure Plate and thinner Frictions, then making up the difference
with the various steels I had
Stack is "upside down," with the first thicker 0.125 steel, then alternating 0.080 Raybestos steels and 0.058 Kolenes, and 0.060 Red Eagle frictions.
Also gained one more friction (six total) and still maintained the nice beefy 0.340 Pressure Plate. With a 0.072 Snap Ring yielded 0.020
of clearance. Alto calls for 0.020-0.025
Okay. After my 4th or 5th Friction Pack set up, it was time to move onward
Notice the drum lip (just inboard of the spring,) does not have the typical 4 notches of the earlier E4OD Direct Drums. The notches are to retain
a thrust washer. The newer updated Direct has NO notches and NO thrust washer in this location. I explained this earlier in Post #53. The difference
is NOW we are starting to assemble the whole thing, and don't want to MISS any installation of parts (with this first bearing being SKIPPED)
The Forward Drum gets a needle bearing, using blue grease to hold it in place,
(The Inside Race (darker metal) is installed facing up. The outside race is the thin silver line around the OUTER edge, and is facing down.)
The Forward Clutch Hub gets a plastic thrust washer (held with that glue-like blue grease)
Forward Hub goes into the Direct, and into the Forward Hub goes the Planet,
Note: a needle thrust bearing is stuck to the Planet. The bearing only goes on one way...
Forward Planet dropped into Forward Hub (black) which is already dropped into the Forward Friction Pack (silver)
The six-pinion Forward Planet gets a needle thrust bearing ("Inside Race" facing out)
The Input Shell is placed over the assembly and the holder is bolted in place:
That's all I had time for, I'll keep chipping away at it!
Best regards,
George
...I got these 0.010 thick shims early in the build. Turns out they are 4-tang, and now with the 6-pinion planet, I have 3-tang
You must be registered for see images attach
Who knows, I might not even need shims but thought they would be useful (heck, why would they produce them?) Further research
might turn up an alternative.
BUT,
again, I must have been day dreaming at work again, because I thought about what Typ4 and a few other transmission builders said,
to go thick with your Pressure Plate but try to get extra frictions and steels without too much penalty.
SO,
I tore down again,
You must be registered for see images attach
These are all the materials I have to work with to put together "the ultimate Direct Pack" for my requirements. The most recent stack is on
the right. Note the thick 0.340" Pressure Plate.
Before, I had not quite considered what Typ4 was talking about, I was being at too extreme ends of the spectrum, but as I learned about what
would be good for my SPECIFIC BUILD, I ended up with a combo of thicker Pressure Plate and thinner Frictions, then making up the difference
with the various steels I had
You must be registered for see images attach
Stack is "upside down," with the first thicker 0.125 steel, then alternating 0.080 Raybestos steels and 0.058 Kolenes, and 0.060 Red Eagle frictions.
Also gained one more friction (six total) and still maintained the nice beefy 0.340 Pressure Plate. With a 0.072 Snap Ring yielded 0.020
of clearance. Alto calls for 0.020-0.025
You must be registered for see images attach
Okay. After my 4th or 5th Friction Pack set up, it was time to move onward
Notice the drum lip (just inboard of the spring,) does not have the typical 4 notches of the earlier E4OD Direct Drums. The notches are to retain
a thrust washer. The newer updated Direct has NO notches and NO thrust washer in this location. I explained this earlier in Post #53. The difference
is NOW we are starting to assemble the whole thing, and don't want to MISS any installation of parts (with this first bearing being SKIPPED)
The Forward Drum gets a needle bearing, using blue grease to hold it in place,
You must be registered for see images attach
(The Inside Race (darker metal) is installed facing up. The outside race is the thin silver line around the OUTER edge, and is facing down.)
The Forward Clutch Hub gets a plastic thrust washer (held with that glue-like blue grease)
You must be registered for see images attach
Forward Hub goes into the Direct, and into the Forward Hub goes the Planet,
You must be registered for see images attach
Note: a needle thrust bearing is stuck to the Planet. The bearing only goes on one way...
You must be registered for see images attach
Forward Planet dropped into Forward Hub (black) which is already dropped into the Forward Friction Pack (silver)
The six-pinion Forward Planet gets a needle thrust bearing ("Inside Race" facing out)
You must be registered for see images attach
The Input Shell is placed over the assembly and the holder is bolted in place:
You must be registered for see images attach
That's all I had time for, I'll keep chipping away at it!
Best regards,
George
Last edited:
Overdrive Cylinder Spiral Snap Ring
Short session tonight, replacing the Snap Ring I broke the other day:
Somehow* I broke the little tiny locking tab (upper ring)
Turns out that without that little tab a catastrophic failure can occur, be sure that Snap Ring is intact!
*"somehow..." ---the installation instructions specifically call for a Compression Tool to be used, but I'm too cheap...
I am starting to think I broke off the tab by unknowingly levering against it with a screwdriver (not hard to
do either, when working around the ring shoving it into the groove.)
So I made a few cautionary moves I will share. To start the Snap Ring, I slid the Return Spring away from
the groove to make more room. Then I stuck one end of the Snap Ring into the groove...
Then, keeping the end of the ring engaged in the groove, I SWUNG the Snap Ring around into the final position
over the Return Spring,
Start working the Ring into the Groove using a screwdriver.
I put some marker ink on the little tabs just so I would NOT accidentally crush one!
I ended up going around the Ring 4 times with a screwdriver pushing the ring deeper into the groove. (It can
sit in the groove and NOT be fully seated and LOOK fine but NOT BE! Check it.
Coming around to the other end after the 2nd or 3rd lap, the end of the ring is ALMOST going to snap in place...
The ring will only snap in place when completely seated into the groove. Finally, I heard a "click" and I was done.
(You can also get in real close and see when the ring is secured by that little tab. There's actually TWO tabs to
hack a visual on!)
****************************
I set the Intermed./Forward/Shell assembly on top of the Reverse Assembly for a test fit (I'm waiting on some shims
I might need for possible endplay adjustment.) I used the holder thing I built, worked well, just a little turning and
wiggling and the assembly dropped right in...
Couple things to note-
that square hole in the case allows access to the ends of the holder tool if needed. The tool fit so well it might need
a little help getting taken off...
Another thing I noticed was in the ATSG they show the Servo Valve Piston is secured by a snap ring... ...mine ISN'T!!!
In fact, mine doesn't have any place for a snap ring to sit in, must be a variation and will be okay.
(NO groove for a snap ring or clip)
If anybody knows that this is okay, please let me know. It did not have one when I tore down (but the trans was never run.)
****************************
Next will be the Intermediate Clutch and Endplay. I got some studying up to do...
Best regards,
George
Short session tonight, replacing the Snap Ring I broke the other day:
You must be registered for see images attach
Somehow* I broke the little tiny locking tab (upper ring)
You must be registered for see images attach
Turns out that without that little tab a catastrophic failure can occur, be sure that Snap Ring is intact!
*"somehow..." ---the installation instructions specifically call for a Compression Tool to be used, but I'm too cheap...
I am starting to think I broke off the tab by unknowingly levering against it with a screwdriver (not hard to
do either, when working around the ring shoving it into the groove.)
So I made a few cautionary moves I will share. To start the Snap Ring, I slid the Return Spring away from
the groove to make more room. Then I stuck one end of the Snap Ring into the groove...
You must be registered for see images attach
Then, keeping the end of the ring engaged in the groove, I SWUNG the Snap Ring around into the final position
over the Return Spring,
You must be registered for see images attach
Start working the Ring into the Groove using a screwdriver.
I put some marker ink on the little tabs just so I would NOT accidentally crush one!
You must be registered for see images attach
I ended up going around the Ring 4 times with a screwdriver pushing the ring deeper into the groove. (It can
sit in the groove and NOT be fully seated and LOOK fine but NOT BE! Check it.
Coming around to the other end after the 2nd or 3rd lap, the end of the ring is ALMOST going to snap in place...
You must be registered for see images attach
The ring will only snap in place when completely seated into the groove. Finally, I heard a "click" and I was done.
(You can also get in real close and see when the ring is secured by that little tab. There's actually TWO tabs to
hack a visual on!)
****************************
You must be registered for see images attach
I set the Intermed./Forward/Shell assembly on top of the Reverse Assembly for a test fit (I'm waiting on some shims
I might need for possible endplay adjustment.) I used the holder thing I built, worked well, just a little turning and
wiggling and the assembly dropped right in...
Couple things to note-
You must be registered for see images attach
that square hole in the case allows access to the ends of the holder tool if needed. The tool fit so well it might need
a little help getting taken off...
You must be registered for see images attach
Another thing I noticed was in the ATSG they show the Servo Valve Piston is secured by a snap ring... ...mine ISN'T!!!
You must be registered for see images attach
In fact, mine doesn't have any place for a snap ring to sit in, must be a variation and will be okay.
(NO groove for a snap ring or clip)
If anybody knows that this is okay, please let me know.
It did not have one when I tore down (but the trans was never run.)****************************
Next will be the Intermediate Clutch and Endplay. I got some studying up to do...
Best regards,
George
Last edited:
trackspeeder
Stone crusher.
ATSG show the old obsolete servo piston. Ignore that. If you ever run into the old style servo piston chuck it, along with the cover plate and snap ring.
The update is what you have in your photos. No cover plate or snap ring required.
The update is what you have in your photos. No cover plate or snap ring required.
Thanks TrackSpeeder, that comes as good news, I figured there was a reason my Servo Piston didn't have the shield or clip!
********************************
Tonight I had to make a better tool, the one I had was flexing and because I am using a dial indicator on it, there cannot be
any deflection in the tools.
I had some 10 gauge steel so I cut a circle,
Then the part that was bendy got replaced. I went out back and found a scratch piece of 3/8 x 1-1/2 flat stock...
and I ended up with a Overdrive Cylinder Compressor:
(*I should note, that I also used this tool to install the Snap Ring for the OD Cylinder. You need to get the Snap Ring in place
then release the Tool so the Piston expands up against the Snap Ring. The circular disc I made is covering and pushing down
on the Piston. Once pressed down (and the Piston will stop moving but the Tool will keep going (until the fingers of the Spring
flatten out, so be careful!)) Then we are ready to release the pressure of the Tool. The amount of movement is measured.
That is, the movement from bottoming-out the Tool (as soon as the Piston STOPS squeezing down, STOP) ceases, then mark
that as "ZERO" on the depth gauge. Slowly release the pressure of the Tool and see how much movement occurs until the
piston expands up against the Snap Ring. ASTG call out is (0.026"-0.054") but I got 0.016, as shown below
I did this three times and that is what I got every time. After you've tried this a couple times you start to realize what the
motion is and how short it is (I unscrewed the Tool 3/4 turn, and it has FINE THREADS for better sensitivity.) Basically, the OD Cylinder
pushes BACK on the Center Support, and FORWARD on the installed Snap Ring. We are just squeezing it down and letting it expand
back out.
Not sure if tight is good in this case. It seems to be in other parts of the transmission. I might purchase the next thinner Selective
Snap Ring. The present one is 0.080
The next THINNEST size is about 0.060, giving me a clearance of 0.036" Again, not sure if this is worth the effort...
Until next time.
Best regards,
George
********************************
Tonight I had to make a better tool, the one I had was flexing and because I am using a dial indicator on it, there cannot be
any deflection in the tools.
I had some 10 gauge steel so I cut a circle,
You must be registered for see images attach
You must be registered for see images attach
Then the part that was bendy got replaced. I went out back and found a scratch piece of 3/8 x 1-1/2 flat stock...
You must be registered for see images attach
and I ended up with a Overdrive Cylinder Compressor:
You must be registered for see images attach
You must be registered for see images attach
(*I should note, that I also used this tool to install the Snap Ring for the OD Cylinder. You need to get the Snap Ring in place
then release the Tool so the Piston expands up against the Snap Ring. The circular disc I made is covering and pushing down
on the Piston. Once pressed down (and the Piston will stop moving but the Tool will keep going (until the fingers of the Spring
flatten out, so be careful!)) Then we are ready to release the pressure of the Tool. The amount of movement is measured.
That is, the movement from bottoming-out the Tool (as soon as the Piston STOPS squeezing down, STOP) ceases, then mark
that as "ZERO" on the depth gauge. Slowly release the pressure of the Tool and see how much movement occurs until the
piston expands up against the Snap Ring. ASTG call out is (0.026"-0.054") but I got 0.016, as shown below
You must be registered for see images attach
I did this three times and that is what I got every time. After you've tried this a couple times you start to realize what the
motion is and how short it is (I unscrewed the Tool 3/4 turn, and it has FINE THREADS for better sensitivity.) Basically, the OD Cylinder
pushes BACK on the Center Support, and FORWARD on the installed Snap Ring. We are just squeezing it down and letting it expand
back out.
Not sure if tight is good in this case. It seems to be in other parts of the transmission. I might purchase the next thinner Selective
Snap Ring. The present one is 0.080
You must be registered for see images attach
The next THINNEST size is about 0.060, giving me a clearance of 0.036" Again, not sure if this is worth the effort...
Until next time.
Best regards,
George
trackspeeder
Stone crusher.
When you tighten the center bolt, you should use a inch pound torque wrench. Set it to 65 inch pounds. This will prevent you from "flattening" the spring.
Now if you can loosen up that .016 spec. Get closer to .026 if you can.
Now if you can loosen up that .016 spec. Get closer to .026 if you can.
Hi TrackSpeeder,
Yes, I used one, after a few times I switched over to the less bulky ratchet. The feel of the tool was very solid, I could feel the compression and knew
the extent was 3/4 turn exactly. Still, you are correct, in order for me to get that "feel" I used my inch-pound torque wrench first- wise advice.
***************************************
OK. Had a weird one today. Got home and there was a package sitting on the porch. Again, I thought, "What did I get this time?" (around lunch time I
called Mike the parts guy and ordered a special thickness snap ring for the OD Clutch (last step before the pump goes back on.)) But there was NO WAY
it could arrive in a few hours...
...looking at the address, the package came from Alto:
Literally from Alto headquarters in Alabama...
...and in the box:
Since I'm a novice to this I couldn't tell what was what, only serial numbers were written on the bags, so I went to AltoAutomotiveCatalog.pdf and looked
up the part numbers.
It was (6) Alto Red Eagle Reverse Frictions (0.075,) (6) Alto Kolene Steels (.068,) and (4) Alto Red Eagle Intermediate Frictions (.078) (the outer ones.)
*these numbers were NOT what I measured, catalog numbers only!
As you may recall, I had installed Alto Grey frictions around the Reverse Drum, AND I had Alto Grey frictions I literally just installed last night as a test-fit,
so this is WEIRD, WEIRD, WEIRD!!!
I haven't put 2 + 2 together yet, but methinks someone wants me to have Alto Red Eagles and Kolenes in this thing!
Even more strange, there was no paper, no invoice, no purchase sheet, no receipt, nothing... ...just the addy on the box
Still scratching my head on this one (have not sacked-up enough to call the number, I kinda want to keep these things!)
****************************************
So,
I tore down the whole tranny (I know, I know, but it's good practice, what took me days before took less than 20 minutes) (This darn build thread
is reading like a Russian Novel!)
After the Alto Red Eagle Reverse Frictions soaked a while I started measuring stacks. (I found measuring a KNOWN stack height gave me the goal I
should try to hit when assembling a NEW stack. This is WAY FASTER than assembling/measuring/assembling.)
OLD STACK- What I want to shoot for, 1.466" got me 0.016" of clearance
I fiddled with the Red Eagles and Kolenes a while, man I wished those Kolenes were thicker (or my Pressure Plate thinner...)
Mixing some of the regular steels (thicker than Kolenes) I came up with this:
NEW STACK- 1.464"
I have found measuring stacks alone just gets you in the ballpark, the thing needs to be INSTALLED and measured properly.
So after putting this first try into the Trans Case, I got:
Clearance=0.023" (Alto has a spec for this at 0.020-0.025)
(I realize the math does not add up exactly perfect doing those "bench stacks" but the texture of the Red Eagles is different than the Greys, maybe
they swolled up different after going in the case? This was hard to measure, I will attempt again with a fresh start.)
So far, this set up would maybe be acceptable, but I need to think about this a bit, the Reds are definitely going to be better than the Greys.
6 Reds (0.078) / 4 Steels (0.080) / 2 Kolenes / (0.060) / 1 Pressure (0.550)
*************************************
The other part of this new direction is the Indirect Friction Pack (outside the Drum, between the Drum and Case, NOT inside the Drum, that's all good.)
I was just too tired to crunch numbers so I'll pick this up next session!
Best regards,
George
Yes, I used one, after a few times I switched over to the less bulky ratchet. The feel of the tool was very solid, I could feel the compression and knew
the extent was 3/4 turn exactly. Still, you are correct, in order for me to get that "feel" I used my inch-pound torque wrench first- wise advice.
***************************************
OK. Had a weird one today. Got home and there was a package sitting on the porch. Again, I thought, "What did I get this time?" (around lunch time I
called Mike the parts guy and ordered a special thickness snap ring for the OD Clutch (last step before the pump goes back on.)) But there was NO WAY
it could arrive in a few hours...
...looking at the address, the package came from Alto:
You must be registered for see images attach
Literally from Alto headquarters in Alabama...
...and in the box:
You must be registered for see images attach
Since I'm a novice to this I couldn't tell what was what, only serial numbers were written on the bags, so I went to AltoAutomotiveCatalog.pdf and looked
up the part numbers.
It was (6) Alto Red Eagle Reverse Frictions (0.075,) (6) Alto Kolene Steels (.068,) and (4) Alto Red Eagle Intermediate Frictions (.078) (the outer ones.)
*these numbers were NOT what I measured, catalog numbers only!
You must be registered for see images attach
You must be registered for see images attach
As you may recall, I had installed Alto Grey frictions around the Reverse Drum, AND I had Alto Grey frictions I literally just installed last night as a test-fit,
so this is WEIRD, WEIRD, WEIRD!!!
I haven't put 2 + 2 together yet, but methinks someone wants me to have Alto Red Eagles and Kolenes in this thing!
Even more strange, there was no paper, no invoice, no purchase sheet, no receipt, nothing... ...just the addy on the box
Still scratching my head on this one (have not sacked-up enough to call the number, I kinda want to keep these things!)
****************************************
So,
I tore down the whole tranny (I know, I know, but it's good practice, what took me days before took less than 20 minutes) (This darn build thread
is reading like a Russian Novel!
)After the Alto Red Eagle Reverse Frictions soaked a while I started measuring stacks. (I found measuring a KNOWN stack height gave me the goal I
should try to hit when assembling a NEW stack. This is WAY FASTER than assembling/measuring/assembling.)
You must be registered for see images attach
OLD STACK- What I want to shoot for, 1.466" got me 0.016" of clearance
I fiddled with the Red Eagles and Kolenes a while, man I wished those Kolenes were thicker (or my Pressure Plate thinner...)
Mixing some of the regular steels (thicker than Kolenes) I came up with this:
You must be registered for see images attach
NEW STACK- 1.464"
I have found measuring stacks alone just gets you in the ballpark, the thing needs to be INSTALLED and measured properly.
So after putting this first try into the Trans Case, I got:
You must be registered for see images attach
Clearance=0.023" (Alto has a spec for this at 0.020-0.025)
(I realize the math does not add up exactly perfect doing those "bench stacks" but the texture of the Red Eagles is different than the Greys, maybe
they swolled up different after going in the case? This was hard to measure, I will attempt again with a fresh start.)
So far, this set up would maybe be acceptable, but I need to think about this a bit, the Reds are definitely going to be better than the Greys.
You must be registered for see images attach
6 Reds (0.078) / 4 Steels (0.080) / 2 Kolenes / (0.060) / 1 Pressure (0.550)
*************************************
The other part of this new direction is the Indirect Friction Pack (outside the Drum, between the Drum and Case, NOT inside the Drum, that's all good.)
You must be registered for see images attach
I was just too tired to crunch numbers so I'll pick this up next session!
Best regards,
George
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