1998 E4OD on the outside... ...wait a minute!

[SDEconVan]

Wow FORDF250HDXLT, I still can't get over what you gone through to make things right- I think the average mortal woulda
gave up a LOOOOOONG time ago

MAN! Now you got me thinking about the F5 I got, tonight I gave it another chance because of what you and TrackSpeeder said (see
below.) I'm gonna need a judgement call on this one, because I know that "bushings won't just wear in" they usually seize and fail...

I'm not sure who RacerX is, except maybe the cartoons I saw when I was 12 years old. The Converter I got was "modified with an
extra low stall speed, (approx 250 RPM,) a Billet cover for anti ballooning, HD Torrington bearings, and FOUR MOUNTING STUDS for a
89-ON Ford IDI Diesels including Powerstroke with a E4OD. It has three times the lock-up capacity as a stock converter with a triple
disc setup. The converter allows the truck/van to work hard and keep trans temps low." Oh, and it was $484, from Washington
State. I'll have to get the exact info when I put the final Vendor List together...


Well TrackSpeeder,
Once again your experience reigns supreme Now I have to decide to "go/no-go" with the F5 Pump. I would really value YOUR
and FORDF250...'s opinions (and of course anyone else's who might be able to shed some light,) on what I will describe below...

And GREAT advice on the Torque Converter placement, and also the sequence (I was going to put it on with the tranny under the
van. Now I'm going to install it correctly on the bench, bolt it down somehow, then take the whole thing out to the site.)

*******************************************
Front Pump Fitting Discussion

This is super-important. The stuff I'm finding has been kinda bad news. Bad enough to make me STOP the build, figure stuff out,
get help (from you guys,) and make decisions. I'm looking to continue. OH, and to spice things up a bit, the build is on a time
limit, I have 30 days to register with DMV from the purchase date!!! I plan to drive it to the weighing and VIN check.

Earlier, I was just about DONE with the internals of the E4OD, the Front Pump is the last assembly before doing the Valve Body and
Torque Converter.

PROBLEM WAS THE INPUT SHAFT WAS LOCKED IN PLACE. Couldn't even pull it out of the Pump, had to loosen the Pump
Bolts and release the pump a bit just to get the Input out!!!

I did TrackSpeeder's steps, the most important being to pull the Input Shaft out, then continue with the tightening to seat the
Front Pump without the Input Shaft in place.

I DID NOT REALIZE THE FRONT PUMP TILTS BACK AND FORTH ON ITS' WAY TO GETTING SEATED. IT MOVES QUITE A BIT!
The Input Shaft can grip/bind with the Pump giving a "false seating" and a stuck Input Shaft!



THEN, the moment of truth, "Would this make a difference?"

YES!

I put the original Input Shaft first:

You must be registered for see images attach

It pulled out pretty easy, maybe a little bit of resistance, definitely NOT falling out like with the E9/F1 pump. Both the F5 and E9
have NEW BUSHINGS.

*NOTE also the "stick out" for the Input is 1-7/8" this is with the Input Shaft bottomed out.

NOW, the NEW shorter shaft:

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It pulled out with a sliight bit of resistance. I liken it to the "push fit" I get when doing King Pin Bushings. I took the Input out
and and clocked it several times and put it back in. Slid out the same every time. IT NO LONGER LOCKS UP OR IS HINDERED
There is NO detectable wobble/radial movement. It is a smooth push-fit, simple as that.

*NOTE "stick out" is 1-3/8"

*************

My question,

"Does the F5/New Shorter Shaft combo sound like it's okay?"

*************

Also, thinking about choosing the original longer shaft, because it is a little "looser," although it is longer, I found a spec in
MotorCraft that called for 2" of stick out of the Input Shaft from the Stator. This is my "Plan B."

(edit: the 2" Stick Out spec is incorrect. Spec is 1.5")

Seems like IF the New-Shorter Input Shaft is too risky, I could use the original longer shaft, since both are under that
stick-out spec I found.

"Could someone measure the stick out they got?" I'd really like a "real" number.

Please let me know, can the Input be that close/tight? Or is it supposed to have some "wobble" like just about
every C4, C6, 4L80E I've seen?

*************

Front Pump Seals

I'm wanting to identify and get opinions of which seal may be the better one.

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Left is from the Alto kit, right was a direct purchase from Makco http://www.makcotransmissionparts.com/36070G.html

I do know the black one is Viton, which is good with ATF/Veggie Oil and similar solvent type fluids. The one on
the left is Gray, BUT it's from a known quality kit supplier, Alto.

My question may be answered in itself, the Viton seems the better option, but I would like to hear opinions of both.
Check the Makco link, they say the Blue seals are obsolete now...

*************

Lunch time at work, I cleaned the mating surface of the 6.9L, I got a pic of this:

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Notice the leak?

It hadn't run in six weeks when I showed that first start video in the Van Thread, ran for about 4-5 minutes and shut down
until the tranny goes in...

What is the recommended way to go after this? I am thinking one bolt a time, some solvent, then Permatex Grey
(transmissions/dries harder) on the hole and/or bolts.


That's it for now.

Best regards,
George

 

[trackspeeder]

The shorter shaft is OK. Long spline down. Short spline up.

When it come to the pump seal.. Don't mess around with the gray rubber seals. Use a quality Viton seal. Unless you want to pull the tranny again. That does get old quickly.

Crank bolts require thread sealant. Otherwise you will have leaks.. Like in your photo.

 

[FORDF250HDXLT]

Wow FORDF250HDXLT, I still can't get over what you gone through to make things right- I think the average mortal woulda gave up
a LOOOOOONG time ago

MAN! Now you got me thinking about the F5 I got, tonight I gave it another chance because of what you and TrackSpeeder said (see below.)
I'm gonna need a judgement call on this one, because I know that "bushings won't just wear in" they usually seize and fail...
Best regards,
George

haha nah.i ain't no quitter.i'll fight till the end.
hey as long as im not laying out in the snow in below freezing temps,im enjoying every minute of it.pass or fail....but hopefully i can be done with the failing part for a bit lol.time to move onward already.

iv no clue what the issue with the f5 pump is.iv never heard of anyone running into binding issues with the input shaft,while installing the pump.as far as that goes it should install just like the old E9 pump.maybe the gears in the f5 are no good?

"I DID NOT REALIZE THE FRONT PUMP TILTS BACK AND FORTH ON ITS' WAY TO GETTING SEATED. IT MOVES QUITE A BIT!"

^ that sounds very,very,very wrong.what pump is doing that to ya,your old E9?

 

[SDEconVan]

TrackSpeeder-

Great to hear that, my original upgrades are gonna get used after alll- NICE!!!
I paid some cabbage for that shorter Input Shaft, it woulda been a shame I tell ya...

...by the way, my "Stick Out Spec" of 2" was actually 1.5" after I checked, which is
closer to 1-3/8" of the shorter shaft.

YES! Viton seal going in for sure, a little more research validates that they are good.
(for everyone: "Viton" is a type of polymer plastic that is super durable but costs more

I will look up the procedure and torque spec for the crank bolts, any brand of thread sealer over
the others?


Hey FORDF250HDXLT-

Your work is inspiring brother, and it must feel real good when it all goes together proper. My hat's
off to you!

Ya, the F5 turns out to be fine, my install steps were off (TrackSpeeder straightened that out.) That
F5 just got a tight bushing tolerance methinks, and the trick billet Input Shaft combined with that tight
Pump makes for NO ROOM for errors. If I don't install it just right, I can mess the whole thing up and
get the wrong reason for it not working out. Grateful for guys like him and you, experience is a very
valuable (and respected) thing!

"I DID NOT REALIZE THE FRONT PUMP TILTS BACK AND FORTH ON ITS' WAY TO GETTING SEATED..."

I used kind of strong words, by tilt I mean a few thousandths of an inch, which is what was happening
when I was tightening the Pump WITHOUT using a mallet AND KEEPING the Input Shaft in during tightening
of the Pump Bolts. (Picture the bolts being used to draw the Pump down and one bolt tighter than another
AND the tight tolerance Input Shaft still in place during all this. Just that little bit of misalignment can cause
a massive bind up and the pump won't continue on it's way to being seated, it will just be gripping the Input
Shaft at max bolt torque, NEVER SEATING PROPER. So then you can't figure out why with no experience, and
I instantly thought it was something INTERNAL to the transmission just because I never built this type or to
this tight of tolerances before...

*****************************************************
This evening, I wanted to show the Stack Up Check shown here:

http://www.thedieselstop.com/faq/9497faq/maint/stj/stj71a39.htm

(Starting at Step 23)
This step is done to verify your build up to that point is going right. Their spec is 0.032"-0.080"
I used my (cheap) digital depth gauge

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There is a hole in the Center Support just for doing this.

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You must be registered for see images attach

The idea is to measure the depth of that hole TWO TIMES. First time, you hold the plastic Thrust Washer up
behind the hole, and hold it flush and stick the gauge probe in the hole. ZERO the gauge in this position.

The second time, you temporarily install the Center Support (with plastic Thrust Washer stuck behind it with grease,)
into the tranny case and measure the depth again. This time you push the Thrust Washer AWAY/OFF OF the
Center Support to create a gap and find the Stack Clearance.

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I got 0.021"

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Which I asked a couple builders and they both said that is great. Note I used two of the 0.010" Sonnax shims between
the Input Shell and Reverse Planet to tighten things a little bit. Conceivably I could pull out one shim and get close to the
factory spec using 0.032" BUT my final Endplay would be affected, so a delicate balance must be attained.

Again, you must be willing to tear down and deal with those shims or swap out other parts in the stack, if your numbers
are way off- but you should know that at this point...

That's it for now. More assembly in the coming sessions, been prepping the van as well, thinking about the shift mech and
cooler. After that will be mounts and wiring, then other stuff I don't want to bring up yet.

Best regards,
George

 

[FORDF250HDXLT]

oh i see.well i had read to never use the pump bolts to draw in and seat the pump,but i didn't know why not exactly.it's good to know what happens if you do that anyway.great to hear you'll be using the updated high vol pump and it was something simple to remedy.awesome job.way more than i would tackle.sounds like your getting close now.

 

[SDEconVan]

Hey FORDF250HDXLT-
Yep, I managed to use the F5 pump I wanted to from the beginning, pretty happy about that

Yes, I'm close now too, (see below.)

*********************************
Front Pump Final Installation

Tonight was pretty simple, I just had to put the Front Pump in, now that I got it figured out.

You must be registered for see images attach

got the thrust bearing on with grease, two teflon ring seals (with grease,) and the Torringtion end bearing (with sticky grease.)

Paper Gasket was placed in to Transmission Case.

By the way, you want to put your sticky grease on the INSIDE side of the Teflon Ring Seals, and oppose their seams 180 degrees.

You must be registered for see images attach

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I used 3 bolts to roughly position the rotation of the Pump (do NOT tighten or use for tightening!)
Note: No rubber washers under the bolt heads yet.
Note: Input Shaft was in place, then pulled out as soon as the Pump was gently set down (before pushing the pump in.)
Note: I took the paint off the Pump where the Converter Seal was placed and around the perimeter where the bolts go.

I pushed the pump straight in by hand, made the "thump" and I could see it needed to go a little more

You must be registered for see images attach

Looked like about 40 thou to go...

Used a rubber dead blow hammer to carefully seat the pump, just working my way around 3-4 times.

Right at the end, I put all the bolts in and hand-tightened them with a socket extension (no wrench on it.)

Then the dead blow hammer again, then hand-tightening the bolts a bit more.

Finally, I torqued the bolts (NO rubber washers yet,) to 23 ft-lbs

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Used white marker to check off each bolt as I went... ...alternating pattern was used.

Once torqued, I backed out one bolt at a time and put a rubber washer on then re-torqued to 23 ft-lbs.

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Once that was done I put yellow marker to check off each bolt as I went.

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Put the Input Shaft in to see if it would go all the way in,

Success!

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and more important, I could pull it out with two fingers. (Still kinda firm, it won't just fall out if tipped over.)

So ends this chapter- the internals are now all buttoned-up and I can continue on the build.

(Continued...)

 

[SDEconVan]

(Cont.)

***********************************
Shifter Seal and Shaft.

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Original I plucked on left, new on right. Both never used. No special materials specified.

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Good chance to get the gunk out of the bore.

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I put a little thread sealant on the seal, and pushed it in with a c-clamp (it's not that tight.)

The other one was new but sat for two years, so I consider that to be wear from the elements.

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Shift Detent has a little tab on it, so it can only go in one way (cheaper than training new workers I guess)

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100 in-lbs.

The aftermarket B&M E4OD Shift Shaft went in perfectly. Aftermarket was used to allow for more
options on setting up the shift mechanism.

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Notice the MLPS (Manual Lever Position Sensor, like a neutral safety switch) was mocked into place.
<edit: This is NOT the correct MLPS- it is for last model E4OD and 4R100 transmissions.>

That reminds me, I had a C6 before, with 4 wires coming out of the NSS, any pointers on how to wire
in the MLPS? I am using a Baumann controller but the instructions (naturally) are too vague. Any
tips would save time, as my clock is literally running with this build...

That's it for now.
Best regards,
George

 

[FORDF250HDXLT]

oh man.your just about there.she's going to work perfectly the first time.100% issue free.non of the bs worries like i had with an old high mileage trans.hope this image helps ya out.

 

[SDEconVan]

Hey Matt-

Actually, to be honest, your thread has me super nervous about turning the key the first time as I am NOT immune
to the same thing you're going through!!! (mine is self-induced rather than inherited from someone else!)

Thanks for the pinouts of the MLPS!

*********************************************
<edit: Figured it out. Wrong MLPS, that is a 4R100 MLPS shown (and for late production E4OD's, not mine though!)>
Here is an image of the correct MLPS:

You must be registered for see images attach

This one has 8 pins, 6 active, 4 of which go to where the C6 needs them to go... ...2 others go to Baumann controller.
I should have known this, since Baumann supplied me with the correct connector, as seen in pic below, all red one,
the red/grey one is for the Servo Controller. They even labelled the wires going to the DASH! HA!!!

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**************as you were....*************

I think my question is how to wire the MLPS into TWO things, the Baumann Controller (I emailed Kevin already,) AND
segregating the 4 wires that go into the Dash of my 1985 Van

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I got 11 possible pins (2 are not active) so 9 pins, and 4 from the old C6, here's the C6 (they called it the NSS instead)

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Then the 4 wires go under the dash:

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If it's like anything else I've worked on, the four wires are for reverse lights, neutral, starter, and power. But more
digging and asking is needed...

...having a blast with it!

Keep it going!
George

 

[SDEconVan]

Check Balls, Accumulator, Main Body, Valve Body installation.

Before going any further, I had to put my final Fluid Bolts in place. "Final" because I had to take out and install
these bolts so many times that I ended up using used ones until the last assembly.

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Yeah, they were blue for some reason (matched the Torque Converter, "Good for 10 more HP!")

Armed with Info.
At this point I was using a mix of ATSG and TransGo installation guides since some of the parts are aftermarket
and others are OEM.

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This is an F8 (1998) Case, which uses 8 check balls of 5/16" diameter. Look closely and you can count them...

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******When I tore this transmission down, I was worried about where those check balls went, but now, after digging all
through this trans, I can say there are plenty of instructions and they are excellent, and really it would be difficult to
mess up their locations!******

(The E4OD gasket kit supplied new (green) check balls.)

The new EPC for the Servo Pack was NOT a ball bearing and spring like that which came out of the tranny. This one
was from TransGo and was shaped like Flash Gordon's Spaceship (google it...) ha.

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Next was a new gasket and the plate (checked for match up of holes, and no holes in the plate being covered over.)

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At the bottom of the photo, the securing tab is installed with 3 10mm bolts (100 in-lbs)

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And ANOTHER paper gasket goes on top of the Plate and first gasket.

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The Accumulator Recalibration Plate is aftermarket and re-routes some fluid circuits. The Accumulator Body bolts right
on top of it without any gaskets. Note Solenoid Screen (filter) is put through TWO metal plates and locked 1/4 turn.
(see black donut.)

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Accumulator Body installed (across top,) and Main Control both installed (all fasteners 100 in-lbs.) Again, this is a case
where you can only use one kind of bolt in every hole, you can kind of see it in their manuals' photos.

NOTE: Be sure to engage the shift arm with the Manual Valve-

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(Continued...)

 

[SDEconVan]

Valve Body Installation (cont.)

Solenoid Pack gets a new o-ring and then some grease to facilitate the install:

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Sol. Pack installed, be sure to reach around and pull down on the electrical connector, this will get the o-ring started
and make it pretty easy to install. Torx-30 bolts used, 100 in-lbs.

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******I found the nuts and bolts holding down all these things can only go in one way (luckily) .***********

Double checking all the torque values, I found a bolt that started to mush on me!!!

DANG IT!!!

I got to about 60 in-lb when I felt the bolt start to yield, so I backed off immediately. Right now it has about 60 in-lb
clamp force, but I am very leery of leaving this alone.

I marked it so I can tear down quickly and get to it with perhaps a heli-coil

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(See yellow paint mark on bolt head, it's one of the shorter bolts...)

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Anyways, new o-ring seal goes on a new 4x4 style deeper pick-up snouted filter.

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Again, greased to help installation. Press fit, the pan holds the filter in place.

Pan gets inspected, magnet checked for debris

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Looks like a little bodywork is in order... (Got to wait til tomorrow, neighbors are sleepin')

Last step will be to lay down the re-useable pan gasket then install the pan

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Just set it in place to keep the crud out. Will button it up once I sort out a solution to the
almost-stripped bolt...

Got to start looking for paint colors to spray this thing before the next step...

...until next time.

Best regards,
George

 

[trackspeeder]

Accumulator body bolts 80-100 inch pounds. Check the bolt hole for debris. Also check the fastener for damage threads. Another possibility, your torque wrench is out of calibration.


Looking good.

 

[SDEconVan]

Good advice TrackSpeeder,

Yes, I chased the thread holes with a flat bottom tap, there was no evidence of problems then.

When I torqued things down, it was real obvious the bolt was killing threads, the torque wrench
"mushed" for about 1/4-1/8 turn. I stopped right away. I have an M6-1.0 HeliCoil, just ordered
the bit.

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There was a piece of alloy thread on the bolt:

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It was my day off, so I spent quite a bit of time beating on the pan. I didn't realize how dented
up it was, she's been around the block a few times that's for sure. The fitting that's expanded
into the pan for the drain bolt is shot. It spins.

Without proper swaging tools the option is to tack weld on the Galvy pan and connect the steel
nutsert. I never like welding on galvanized steel, it's toxic.

Inside view:

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Outside view:

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Actually the pan is pretty beat in general, a couple spots got pounded back from what looks like
bolts trying to poke through, now the metal is kinda thin.

I might shop for another pan...

...even the Drain Bolt is kinda junk looking.

You must be registered for see images attach

I should probably send my torque wrenches in to get checked and adjusted, they've been pretty good over the
years...

Best regards,
George

 

[trackspeeder]

Go to your Ford dealer and get a 4R100 pan. Make sure to use a 4x4 filter. They're cheap.

Toss the old pan in the scrap bin.

 

[SDEconVan]

Thanks TrackSpeeder, that is/was a 4R100 pan, it's pretty shot. Eyeing an aftermarket pan with
more surface area and more volume to dampen the thermal hysteresis effects. Good stuff, I get
a chance to use what I learned working in the U.S. Space Program back in the 80's! ha ha!

On a good note, the guy who built my F5 Front Pump said they do not use the plastic drainback valves,
and haven't for quite a while. Said his were "alloy" so must be aluminum(?) which melts at over 1100F
so I should be good...

Waiting on a couple of items. Today the correct MLPS arrived, verified a test fit and plugged in the
Baumann connectors just to see where I was at.

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This is an MLPS for E4OD 1989-1995. This version will allow for a splice into the existing vehicle wiring
harness, it also allows for the Baumann harness (if so supplied,) to plug right into the MLPS.

2 Wires go to the Baumann Control Unit, 4 wires split off to the vehicle wiring harness.

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Those 4 wires are labelled so it is just a matter of finding the counterpart in the vehicle and splicing
it in. The other two have a micro connector which goes right into the Baumann unit. The red
wire is just a closed loop to use up two of the unused pins.

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When I pulled the C6, I cannibalized the Shift Lever so I could adapt it to the E4OD Shift Shaft.
To do this I will mock it up in Neutral, set the incoming rod 90 degrees to the Lever, and make some marks.
Then I can pull the Lever out and weld up the large round center hole a little bit, then re-cut a "double-D"
hole back into the lever with the right orientation.

(I've done this with several C4 mods and it worked quite well. The idea here is to maintain all the same
geometry in the shift mechanism (two shift rods and a bell-crank)). The second rod leading to the
transmission will need to be lengthened as the new Lever sits about 4" further aft than the C6 one did.

Since I had the parts out, I checked the connection to the Solenoid Pack:

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Kevin at Baumann basically told me if the plug fits, then it's a runner, and can be programmed to work.
This particular Solenoid is for the split-year 1998, so it is more like a 4R100 style block pack. The other
end of those wires plugs right into the controller, no splitting of the group or splicing.

(MAN, I really need to paint that tranny, just on principle alone...)

I checked the VSS plug from them, it went right into the Transfer Case Vehicle Speed Sensor adapter:

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This adapter accepts the square-end speedometer cable AND also plugs into the electrical speed circuit.

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The Baumann controller also needs a TPS (throttle position sensor.) Most all of the 6.9L idi motors use
a vacuum induced TPS. To make it an electrical TPS, the Injection Pump needs to be either adapted or
swapped out for a 7.3L idi version.

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The other thing that plugs into the tranny is the Dipstick. I got the one out of the Van, which went to
the C6...

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You see the o-ring and annular groove, it is supposed to slip into the C6 case. With the E4OD, there is
a stub tube (about 4") sticking out of the case. My guess is the main long tube slips into this tube.

Maybe I can fab this C6 tube to adapt into the stub tube? Wondering what the fluid level in the transmission
should be, as I have to set the dipstick depth to spec. Any comments welcome!

Anyways, as the Trans Build is winding down, I got my bench cleared for the next phase:

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Until next time...

...best regards,
George