Why does the government restrict dyed fuel to off road use?

mac

Registered User
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Posts
29
Reaction score
0
Location
Centennial, CO
I'm seein a lot of back an forth, "yes it does" "no it doesn't" here, but no actual facts.
Not callin anybody a liar or anything, I'm just sayin that facts and evidence would benefit everybody here. I'm not gonna pretend to know anything about this topic, I'm here to learn and I don't see anything solid.
Anybody here have a link to a gov't or well-reputed site with a graph or chart or similar?
 

6 Nebraska IDIs

Registered User
Joined
May 27, 2007
Posts
4,247
Reaction score
15
Well it's been years since we've ran any, so maybe they've changed their formula by now I dont know. I just thought it was an interesting question.
 

mac

Registered User
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Posts
29
Reaction score
0
Location
Centennial, CO
It's the exact same fuel from the same truck where I fuel, they dump the red dye into the tank right in front of you, I have seen them do it with my own eyes. I am sure that not every station does it the same way, they may be able to buy low instead of ultra low, but not in these parts. Also, sometimes the fuel is very red, and sometimes it is faint depending on when they added the dye, and if they have topped the tank with clear at my card lock. You are most likely pumping ultra low sulfur with red dye though. I am willing to bet that the refinery around your parts is only refining one type, ultra low. It is not cost effective for them to do both when the market for low sulfur is so small.

If there isn't an industry standard on this and different stations do do it differently... your info says ya live in Cali, green central. Your laws on that could be much stricter than those of us in other regions.


Well it's been years since we've ran any, so maybe they've changed their formula by now I dont know. I just thought it was an interesting question.

It is, I'd certainly like to find out more about this. I'm new to the diesel world but I'm pretty into offroading, so if there actually are performance benefits in red diesel I'd definitely be interested.
 

Diesel JD

Full Access Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2006
Posts
6,148
Reaction score
7
Location
Gainesville, FL
I haven't even looked at a tank of offroad stuff since the 2006 EPA and 2007 CARB standards requiring the ULSD came into effect. Before that the pump fuel was maximum 500ppm sulfur and the offroad was maximum 5000ppm. I wonder too if you're somebody who has a blender's license and can pay tax on non taxed fuels and you proved you did if you would still get the fine. As for me I believe a road tax is fair and within the government's legitimate powers so I'm not inclined to cheat. If I ever got offroad fuel it would be by accident. Typically I'm burning homebrew B100 and paying the taxes. As far as other reasons the higher sulfur diesel was eliminated the first was an attempt to reduce the amount of oxides of sulfur and nitrogen in the air which contibute to acid rain and smog. The 2nd was when the 2006/07 rules went into effect all diesels had to have rare earth catalytic converters and particulate traps for on road new models. Well it turns out sulfur completely poisons these things so the sulfur had to go. You can get much of your power and fuel economy back by advancing the timing a bit as the European specs have called for for years. It will cost you some economy regardless because the road legal ULSD does have a slightly lower BTU/unit content than the old dirty fuel but still a bit higher than biodiesel which still stacks up OK in the fuel economy department and much higher than gasoline!
 

6 Nebraska IDIs

Registered User
Joined
May 27, 2007
Posts
4,247
Reaction score
15
The only real performance benefit my dad used to rave about was that he could get usually 1 if not 2mpg more with the dyed fuel over the pump stuff.
The main benefit I was speculating on was that we got over 300-350k miles on the last injection system we had in grandpas truck and I was wondering if the dyed off road fuel had something to do with it. There are still many farmers around here running off road diesel in their trucks. We've had our tanks dipped twice though so we wont risk it. Not for a $10k fine.
 

02AutoWag

Registered User
Joined
May 9, 2008
Posts
171
Reaction score
0
Location
Vacaville, CA
The numbers (and members) speak loudly. The red dye is responsible for an increase in performance! It's not just a dye, it's a performance additive! cookoo :D ;p

Count me in for spreading more undocumented information. Off-road fuel is off-spec ULSD. The batches not meeting the ULSD sulphur content, or other ULSD specification, gets diverted to the off-road delivery trucks (yes, that's an overly simplified version of what I believe happens). The off-road fuel is not specifically made to a different formulation, it's just off-spec ULSD, or even good ULSD, whatever is there to meet the next delivery...

Treat the above lightly. I just sold one of my trucks and I've been celebrating with lots of beer. :Thumbs Up for drunken internet posting!
 

DragRag

Registered User
Joined
Aug 8, 2008
Posts
2,031
Reaction score
2
Location
Los Angeles, California
Hm, interesting. Ignoring the Cummins-specific info, according to that article off-road diesel does have a slightly different formula than on-road diesel.

Maybe regionally, but not in my part of Komifornia. Things change rapidly around here with new formulas etc it seems. I wounder how old that article is, and what state it originated from? Pacific pride where I fuel uses ULSD, and just adds dye. I asked the owner about the higher sulfer content diesel, and he said the refinery doesn't even make it anymore where he gets his fuel. So I seriously doubt it is even misformulated since he tops the red tank, and then his main tank from the same truck. I chalk it all up to regionally specific blends, and what the refinery makes in those areas.
 

typ4

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2005
Posts
9,114
Reaction score
1,397
Location
Newberg,OR
they can call it low or ultra low sulpher ,but here in portland the dye gets put in the batch going to the tanker, the huge storage has one grade in it from furnace oil to on highway, it comes out of the same pipe.

Some states have different blends but I have run both and there is NO mileage difference or temp between the two here.
Now jet-a is another story, runs fine but less btu's and less economy. And you must use some lube in it.
 

f-two-fiddy

Registered User
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Posts
2,960
Reaction score
5
Location
Duluth, Mn.
LSD is a thing of the past, it is no longer being made. The EPA has made sure of that.

ULSD is the only grade of diesel made anymore. We are a large international shipping port.We also have a with a huge refinery 20 miles from here.

You should hear the stink the international ship captains/ companies are putting up. Claiming the ULSD they are forced to buy, is ruining their engines. They either buy it, or sit in port.
 

1320Cummins

Pro Parts Thrasher
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Posts
275
Reaction score
0
Location
San Leon, TX
DIESEL FUEL DYEING IN THE U.S.
In the U.S., a confusing situation for both refiners and purchasers of diesel fuel has arisen
because the IRS and the EPA require the addition of red dye to certain classes of diesel
fuel. Each agency requires adding the dye to a different class of fuel, at a different concentration,
and for a different reason such as:
• The EPA wants to identify diesel fuel with high-sulfur content to ensure that it is not
used in on-road vehicles.
• The IRS wants to ensure that tax-exempt high-sulfur and low-sulfur diesel fuel are not
used for taxable purposes.
-------
The EPA Requirements
U.S. EPA regulations require “visible evidence of the presence of red dye” to identify highsulfur
fuels when they leave the refinery. In practice, this requires refiners to add a level
of red dye that is equivalent to no more than 0.75 pounds/1,000 bbl (ptb) (2.14 mg/L)
of a solid Solvent Red 26 dye standard. Solvent Red 26 was chosen as the standard
because it is a unique chemical available in pure form. Diesel fuels are actually dyed with
liquid concentrates of Solvent Red 164 because this dye is more fuel soluble and less
costly than the standard. Solvent Red 164 is a mixture of isomers that are very similar to
Solvent Red 26, except the former incorporates hydrocarbon (alkyl) chains to increase its
solubility in petroleum products.
Any red dye observed in the fuel of a vehicle in on-road use triggers a measurement of the
fuel’s sulfur content. Penalties are assessed based on the actual sulfur content of the fuel,
rather than simply on the presence of dye.
------------
As of June 2012, only heating oil will require red dye for EPA purposes. By then,
on-road, non-road, locomotive, and marine diesels will all be ULSD.
------------
The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) Requirements
U.S. IRS regulations require that tax-exempt diesel fuels, both high-sulfur and low-sulfur,
have a minimum level of a Solvent Red 164 dye that is spectrally equivalent to 3.9 ptb
of the Solvent Red 26 dye standard. This level of dye is more than five times the amount
required by the EPA regulations. The IRS contends that the high dye level is necessary to
allow detection of tax evasion even after five-fold dilution of dyed fuel with undyed fuel.

Pretty good stuff. Its been over a year since my last tank of red. I know for a fact it was the older formula based on mileage gains. I spoke with the SunCoast guy and he told me that their fuel comes from the refinery with dye added. I have watched the drivers pour in performance and algaecide additives but never dye.
 
Last edited:

f-two-fiddy

Registered User
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Posts
2,960
Reaction score
5
Location
Duluth, Mn.
I know the Guy that owns the station where I buy all of My fuel. I've done a lot of concrete work for Him. He keeps Me pretty well informed on whats going on with the fuel He gets. He held out for as long as He could with LSD. About a month ago He HAD to switch to ULSD. Murphy Oil, who supplies fuel for a 5 state region, is not making ANY LSD any more. The refinery flat out told Him that if He wanted ANY diesel Fuel it would be ULSD. He said that Murphy was one, out three refineries in the nation, that were making LSD. None of them are making it anymore.

A little web research pretty much confirmed what He told Me.
 

DeepRoots

Tug Engineer
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Posts
2,338
Reaction score
0
Location
Douglas, Georgia
You should hear the stink the international ship captains/ companies are putting up. Claiming the ULSD they are forced to buy, is ruining their engines. They either buy it, or sit in port

Yeah, I'm sure that the 2hours they burn diesel before they switch to bunker is killing the engines.
On another note, these same captains have obviously not gotten the ****** fuel from asia or south america.....
We should be happy we have such stingent rules on fuel quality. Getting a "bad load" of fuel is almost a thing of the past. It's even worse when you just bought 125,000gallons to go in a boat and find out the Racors keep filling with water, and you just blew off two injector tips.
 

6 Nebraska IDIs

Registered User
Joined
May 27, 2007
Posts
4,247
Reaction score
15
Wow man, that would really suck. To have to rebuild engines just because the gov is making you run crappy fuel.
Don't say bad fuel is a thing of the past either. We get atleast one bad batch every winter. Dip ***** trying to make their pump tank go farther watering the crap down. We even had one truck crack an IP because there was so much water in the fuel and we didn't get it out of the system in time, it froze before we could flush it.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
91,376
Posts
1,131,328
Members
24,174
Latest member
MadScientist

Staff online

Top