SkipBurney
Full Access Member
I have a tractor supply close by I am heading there tomorrow if they have any of these brackets I will pick up 3 or 4 so if anyone wants one let me know.
Where to mount electric pump
- Thread starter DesertBen44
- Start date
I have a tractor supply close by I am heading there tomorrow if they have any of these brackets I will pick up 3 or 4 so if anyone wants one let me know.
SkipBurney
Full Access Member
Does anyone know how much amperage these pumps pull. I am wondering if I need to run a relay for mine or just pick up 12 volts from a hot wire somewhere.
Nice rant.... But you are dead wrong. THe info on teh web site as to the pumps all being pushers is a bit outdated and only relates to their other pumps, not the dura lift. I was having a problem with my pump mounted under the hood with my bed tank and I called Facet and spoke with the head tech guy and lo and behold, even up under the hood was too darn LOW for my bed tank. I was told that thes pumps are completely different critters and they cannot tolerate being force fed teh way most all E pumps are when the y basically operate off a siphon action after they get primed. If you try to do that with a dura lift you will experience pump cavitation where the thing basically freewheels and refuses to move anything. I was told to mount the pump ABOVE the absolute top of the bed tank by a few inches at minimum so it would prevent this from happening, so I moved it back onto my headache rack up ABOVE the tank and that solved all teh problems and I've pulled heavy grossing over 18k all over the country with that setup
THese pumps are designed for sucking fuel up to a refregeration unit engine up on teh top /front of a semi trailer from a fuel tank down on the belly back behind the dolly gear. THey SUCK not PUSH. If you mount them up, and you have any air leaks in your system, you will notice it, but that's not the pumps fault
Before I put teh bed tank on, I ran with the pump up under the hood for a couple of years regularly towing heavy
DesertBen44
Full Access Member
Nice rant.... But you are dead wrong. THe info on teh web site as to the pumps all being pushers is a bit outdated and only relates to their other pumps, not the dura lift. I was having a problem with my pump mounted under the hood with my bed tank and I called Facet and spoke with the head tech guy and lo and behold, even up under the hood was too darn LOW for my bed tank. I was told that thes pumps are completely different critters and they cannot tolerate being force fed teh way most all E pumps are when the y basically operate off a siphon action after they get primed. If you try to do that with a dura lift you will experience pump cavitation where the thing basically freewheels and refuses to move anything. I was told to mount the pump ABOVE the absolute top of the bed tank by a few inches at minimum so it would prevent this from happening, so I moved it back onto my headache rack up ABOVE the tank and that solved all teh problems and I've pulled heavy grossing over 18k all over the country with that setup
THese pumps are designed for sucking fuel up to a refregeration unit engine up on teh top /front of a semi trailer from a fuel tank down on the belly back behind the dolly gear. THey SUCK not PUSH. If you mount them up, and you have any air leaks in your system, you will notice it, but that's not the pumps fault
Before I put teh bed tank on, I ran with the pump up under the hood for a couple of years regularly towing heavy
THATS what i thought i remembered reading! I don't know, At this point i just want it installed, after I painted the bracket i made I didn't really do much today, stalling as this discussion unfolded. Hopefully tomorrow Ill have time to get it finished and be running on that sweet electric pump!
Nice rant.... But you are dead wrong. THe info on teh web site as to the pumps all being pushers is a bit outdated and only relates to their other pumps, not the dura lift. I was having a problem with my pump mounted under the hood with my bed tank and I called Facet and spoke with the head tech guy and lo and behold, even up under the hood was too darn LOW for my bed tank. I was told that thes pumps are completely different critters and they cannot tolerate being force fed teh way most all E pumps are when the y basically operate off a siphon action after they get primed. If you try to do that with a dura lift you will experience pump cavitation where the thing basically freewheels and refuses to move anything. I was told to mount the pump ABOVE the absolute top of the bed tank by a few inches at minimum so it would prevent this from happening, so I moved it back onto my headache rack up ABOVE the tank and that solved all teh problems and I've pulled heavy grossing over 18k all over the country with that setup
THese pumps are designed for sucking fuel up to a refregeration unit engine up on teh top /front of a semi trailer from a fuel tank down on the belly back behind the dolly gear. THey SUCK not PUSH. If you mount them up, and you have any air leaks in your system, you will notice it, but that's not the pumps fault
Before I put teh bed tank on, I ran with the pump up under the hood for a couple of years regularly towing heavy
If the the Facet site is in conflict with itself, doncha think it's a little unprofessional?
How does a person know exactly what/where/how it is to be mounted. The pumps don't even come with instructions nor is there a posted pdf with necessary mounting instructions, recommendations, etc. All it gives us is maximum parameters. It doesn't even give us rated efficiencies per length of line at rated/recommended feed diameters. How do we really know that a 3/8 line is large enough to properly feed at 10 feet away, much less high?
We don't even know if this is an eccentric, diaphragm or centrifugal pump! All we know is, it is electric and can hear the check valve slapping when engaged.... big whoop!
Based on my own knowledge of pumps, the tech guy is advising contrary to pump system designs. If this pump does act contrarily, then what is it that makes it so? I think that is an important question needing to be answered.
When we read of the failures of some installers, the common thread is, fender mounted and/or filter on the suction side.
I'm judging by first hand failures and pump sense.
So far, I have not towed anything, but, I do live up a long steep hill (5 miles long) and I've floored the truck/pump to insure I'm blowing properly. Never a hesitation or cough. My speed uphill is better than mechanical-although unfair comparison because mechanical was ghosting- but no lag or lack of power. My mileage already appears to be better based on engine rpm's alone, as I posted, will get real number comparisons later, not to mention the tranny is shifting much smoother- indicating the FIPL is acting correctly.
It would behoove Purolator/Facet to belly up with some real stats if in fact their tech guy knew what he was saying- it is contrary to pump placement efficiency.
I have 3" pumps that claim to lift 20', reality is, they lift up to 10' without a struggle, over that and it's a fight to keep prime. Diaphragm pumps that make claims too, but fall short of ratings. I don't see this pump any differently.
I don't really care where anyone mounts their pumps, but when I read of fender placement failures, zero pressures at throttle on the fender, smaller than 80 micron filters ahead of the pump, fuel bowls with incomplete fills at the fender all contributing to less than stellar performances, yet only one failure-just now exposed- on a rail mount, I'll go with my intuition and experiences with other pumps and rail mount for best results.
Customizing is all about choices. The opinions I've given regarding this pump is just that, but not out my *****. I've read a lot of these posts and was ready/willing and able to fender install myself- it is my first choice as I hate my gravel driveway to lay on for servicing. However, if we take the time to read first hand experiences- I'm usually interested in failures- not successes, learn a lot more that way- we must alter our own opinions to fit for success. Trust me, I am not stuck in too many opinions or ways of doing things, but I am stuck on getting the best verifiable info possible.
Purolator/Facet is doing us no favors with conflicting data regarding their own products, as well as lack of information. You may be sick of reading my rants over this danged pump, but really.... where's the factory data to prove me wrong?? How about pump design contradicting me?? I will readily concede any point I've misread, but until there is hard data, last thing I'll do is take the word of the counter tech guy... how many times those guys been wrong?? Plenty. Purolator has sold plenty of those pumps to warrant a little time on their site adding installation parameters and real performance facts- you know like a line loss table with specific hose sizes.
How about a little respect for the customer??
This pump is not designed or sold as a consumer end product. They do not market it to end users in any way shape or form, they only supply them to Carrier Transicold and Thermoking as OE pumps , therefore they have zero reason to be supplying consumer information . These are commercial pumps that we have pressed into service on trucks, and as I spoke with the guy at Facet, it's become quite a trend that they never planned on, but the things just work better than anything else out there ( hence the reason Carrier and Thermoking BOTH switched to the things as their OE pumps) Used to be the only place you could even get thethings was from a Carrier transicold dealer ( which is where I had to go to get mine when I installed teh first one ) they had never heard of putting on on a pickup at that time , ( in fact they had ZERO failure rate on the things.. it was kind of funny, they had actually never had to sell one and the parts guy was lost for a half hour up in storage trying to locate the case of the things
If you have air leaks anywhere in teh system, it will show up pulling that hard, the FSV is a common point or air intrusion under suction, and as the guy at Facet told me, NEVER put a filter before the thing, that's what the screen is for. It is designed as a self sufficient unit. the screen is enough to protect the pump, the engine fuel filter should be mounted after the pump ( and those screen catch an incredible amount of crud. sometimes I]ll go months sometimes a day before it clogs depending on where I'v fueled up, but a quick cleaning and off we go, I can't remember the last time I had to change a main fuel filter except one I changed for the heck of it since I figured the element had to be getting pretty saturated it had been in there so long.
When you are pressing parts into service that they were not intended for, you can't go getting mad at the company for not catering to you. That would be like me getting mad at Spicer for not providing installation instructions for stuffing my Brownie into my pickup.
This pump is not designed or sold as a consumer end product. They do not market it to end users in any way shape or form, they only supply them to Carrier Transicold and Thermoking as OE pumps , therefore they have zero reason to be supplying consumer information . These are commercial pumps that we have pressed into service on trucks, and as I spoke with the guy at Facet, it's become quite a trend that they never planned on, but the things just work better than anything else out there ( hence the reason Carrier and Thermoking BOTH switched to the things as their OE pumps) Used to be the only place you could even get thethings was from a Carrier transicold dealer ( which is where I had to go to get mine when I installed teh first one ) they had never heard of putting on on a pickup at that time , ( in fact they had ZERO failure rate on the things.. it was kind of funny, they had actually never had to sell one and the parts guy was lost for a half hour up in storage trying to locate the case of the things
If you have air leaks anywhere in teh system, it will show up pulling that hard, the FSV is a common point or air intrusion under suction, and as the guy at Facet told me, NEVER put a filter before the thing, that's what the screen is for. It is designed as a self sufficient unit. the screen is enough to protect the pump, the engine fuel filter should be mounted after the pump ( and those screen catch an incredible amount of crud. sometimes I]ll go months sometimes a day before it clogs depending on where I'v fueled up, but a quick cleaning and off we go, I can't remember the last time I had to change a main fuel filter except one I changed for the heck of it since I figured the element had to be getting pretty saturated it had been in there so long.
When you are pressing parts into service that they were not intended for, you can't go getting mad at the company for not catering to you. That would be like me getting mad at Spicer for not providing installation instructions for stuffing my Brownie into my pickup.
Your actually making my point for me.
Any commercial application will have everything I'm looking for in specs. Not manufacturer will use some mystery part in their units if they don't know all the specs, refrigeration unit or something else. No need to build in failure.
Now I don't know a darned thing about Brownie, but, I can say this, there is a spec sheet for it, and I'm sure it doesn't indicate installation after the differential.... doesn't make sense does it?
Could you imagine Brownie putting on a web site, this gear box is rated for 600 combination of gears and has the capability to turn the rear wheels...... then in the FAQ's page says: "All gear boxes distributed by Brownie are post-differential installations."
I dunno, as an amateur no nothing, even that makes no sense.
As far as a spec sheet/table of performance or chart of flow, one would imagine that even a refer manufacturer would have specs for the customer within their product info packets. If I'm not mistaken, they're required to at least have some of the UL stuff in it by law.The intent may not be sold to the retail customer, but even the commercial customer, installer etc. all need this info. How many "Pro's" you met that didn't know sheesh from shinola... just look at this board with Stealership stories. I'm sure Carrier is or can be classified as a stealership.
Now compare that to all the different recommended ways to install this pump as an alternative to a mechanical pump..... you don't think it would be helpful to dispel some pump myths?
In the end, yes I can demand that info and expect to be provided accurate information by a vendor, after all, they did take the money.
It's not like I'm asking Carrier or Purolator to give up their manufacturer, just some reasonable data to allow for smart installations.
Besides, nothing you've indicated produces any more data other than some counter guys assessment.
BTW- here's some data on a no longer manufactured Spicer:
http://www.6066gmcguy.org/spicer-5831-b.htm
And one for Brownie:
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1129221-can-someone-translate-gear-ratios.html
It exists for dinosaurs, why not up to date stuff being sold today?? Why can I find that in less than 2 minutes, but nothing about the Purolators?
Customer service is expected, whether or not it is delivered.... weeeellll..... any excuse will do I suppose.
Actually, I have ALL of teh factory manuals for all the old Spicer boxes, but when it comes to installation, they throw on teh brakes, they won't even put a torque rating on the things. They just tell you ' where definite torque rating of this transmission is desired, our ENGINEERS will submit this information upon recipt of complete data as required on our standard application sheet"
in other words, they won't tell the general public a blamed thing, they only work directly hand in hand with OE designers to match applications.
This is the very same thing that you run into with many parts that are designed as OE parts for specialty equipment, just like the dura lift pump, their engineers worked hand in hand with the designers at the refrigeration unit companies to design these things, and all those involved already have all the pertinant information they need. If any other OE manufacturers were to be interested in teh things, their engineers would sit down with them and hash out the details. THis is how it works with heavy equipment. these are not consumer goods. If you are going to press parts into service that were not built for the thing you have to expect some customizing, if that is not your cup of tea, then it's best to stick to swapping out stock parts where its pretty hard to go wrong
Actually, I have ALL of teh factory manuals for all the old Spicer boxes, but when it comes to installation, they throw on teh brakes, they won't even put a torque rating on the things. They just tell you ' where definite torque rating of this transmission is desired, our ENGINEERS will submit this information upon recipt of complete data as required on our standard application sheet"
in other words, they won't tell the general public a blamed thing, they only work directly hand in hand with OE designers to match applications.
This is the very same thing that you run into with many parts that are designed as OE parts for specialty equipment, just like the dura lift pump, their engineers worked hand in hand with the designers at the refrigeration unit companies to design these things, and all those involved already have all the pertinant information they need. If any other OE manufacturers were to be interested in teh things, their engineers would sit down with them and hash out the details. THis is how it works with heavy equipment. these are not consumer goods. If you are going to press parts into service that were not built for the thing you have to expect some customizing, if that is not your cup of tea, then it's best to stick to swapping out stock parts where its pretty hard to go wrong
Swapping parts is not the point again, nor is the desires of the customizing entity in question to take a back seat to possible upgrades or alternatives to unreliable parts.
There are many parts not OEM on nearly every engine out there. Water pumps, fuel pumps and many other items installed but not produced by the engine manufacturer, yet I can locate specific data for Sherwood, Racor(even they have a Purolator style pump.... $600.00!!) Jabsco, Sundyne, Coker, in any desired set up- diaphragm, eccentric, centrifugal, etc... Purolator is just plain lame when it comes to producing data for public or contractor consumption. Not all engineers have staff's of a hundred to "work out" details. Again, more excuses.
As far as the Brownie info regarding torque specs, the variable in mounting the box is horsepower. How can an engineer at Spicer determine which power plant it will be installed into? A 100hp diesel engine or a 300 hp gasser? The torque bands of each of those engines and everything in between all have differing torque specs, BUT, the box builder gives you all pertinent data of the gearing..... the gearing in the box is like the pump type in the Purlator. No such data available from Purolator. The/a Brownie is also rated for up to a specific horse power, this is like rating a pump with data charts of flow using a specific/ideal hose diameter to determine flow.
So far all you're doing is arguing around what is normal in every other pump spec sheet I've ever come across.We can get it on-line from a pdf or many times it comes in the box.
We're not talking about the torque value of the bolts holding it to the rail.
This isn't rocket science, especially for a large company.
Here's the thing guys... it's pointless to argue about the merits of pushing/sucking for a pump that is designed to work in a system with 10 foot of lift and probably a 35 foot fuel feed line. Weather it's near the tank, or the engine, the pump is not running anywhere near it was designed to be. The whole argument that it won't push good, will caviate, and all that stuff means nothing in our application. We are only talking about a 1 to 3 foot elevation change, and maybe a 10 foot fuel hose. Be it near the bed, or the engine, this pump can't tell the difference. The glass bowl is the weakness with this unit, and I bought one so I can talk with authority about them. Every fuel pump I've bought is non-carrier and will go on the inside of the frame rail, where every OEM maker puts it, because it's where it makes sense from every possible angle. In order to enjoy the benefits of this carrier pump with it's fancy glass bowl that you paid to see through, I'll put it in the engine compartment. But I'm sure it will be just as happy on a frame rail being pelted with stones if that's where you would like to run it.
Pretty much agree, but am looking for best performance without the factory/distribution point disagreeing with itself!
Also, with every install, one must weight up's-n-down's.
My concern is two-fold with this pump, first- reading the potential errors on here and problems experienced. Road stones are the dilemma I chose over potential suction failures based on the manufacturers own verbiage.... not mine.
The second part of interest to me is for marine applications. Those pumps are $520.00 less expensive than the Racor units, although Purolator isn't claiming coalescer status, it at least gives a good indication of water. I know, totally irrelevant on this board, but relevant enough to be important for the potential and current user of the pump.
If I know I can install one in the engine room, 20' away from a fuel tank, then it's golden....which a pump with 10' of lift should do readily. If there's problems with the stated 10' of line as a puller, then not only is it problematic with the trucks, but no matter how much less expensive they are, they're worthless in other applications. We would have a better idea with a good table of performance.
I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, for me it isn't dead, nor have I disparaged the use of these pumps or anyone for saying their piece, I'm a believer too, but, when doing $15,000.00 fuel tank, line, pump installations, it's expected to come with some data sheets on the goods installed. Why expect anything less with our cheap old girls?
Explaining away the lack of data isn't productive to the request or observation. It's not like the argument is between blue or green is the better color for trucks.... it's obvious black is best.
A simple data sheet would make for optimum installations based on real numbers. If someone chooses to risk road stones and knocking off the see through bowl, then at least it is an informed decision.
Here...show me all this data you speak of on a stock fuel pump ford F150 for say a 89 model year....go on, get me the data, or accept that it's a fuel pump it can suck and can push and move on....Live with the choice, do the best installation you can, make things work as well as possible and live with that!
Did I mention that there is different specs on the F150 pumps based on front tank rear tank engine size, and wheelbase...ya...I'm serious...but I wont show it I just know it! One thing I know, they suck fuel and pump it up to the engine...nuff said!
Did I mention that there is different specs on the F150 pumps based on front tank rear tank engine size, and wheelbase...ya...I'm serious...but I wont show it I just know it! One thing I know, they suck fuel and pump it up to the engine...nuff said!
U asked for it, you got it!
http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/en-US/literature/en-US/Y580701456-03_DataSheet_enUS_T6821244939.pdf
Now which tank did you want again??
http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/en-US/literature/en-US/Y580701456-03_DataSheet_enUS_T6821244939.pdf
Now which tank did you want again??
Ahh but grasshopper...you neglected to take into account engine displacement or tank location or chassis and as such there are and that's IIRC 3 or 4 different ones....not just one, but good for you grasshopper for being diligent.
regardless of which one, they suck and push fuel...that is the point...!
When calling out for specific data, doesn't that go beyond just suck-n-blow? You yourself indicated it was important in the above. I gave you a spec sheet to review for your specific application since you didn't specify....and a resource too!
Similar threads
