What to do before new IP?

[Macrobb]

Dang, Macrobb! You've rebuilt your own pumps? You're WAY more adventurous than I am. I've had the top off and I've adjusted the fuel screw on the side and that's good enough for me!

It's not that hard to completely disassemble one and replace seals - I think it took me a couple of hours to get it apart, cleaned, re-sealed and reassembled.
The only hard part is that you can't do much more than change a few adjustments without new parts; things like wear on the timing piston or bore, or the 'hot start' issue can't really be fixed without new parts.

Now, if I *had* a new rotor, yeah, it wouldn't be hard to swap it in. Not having a flowbench means that I would kind of just guess at a few settings and run it, then adjust if needed.

I do a /lot/ of adjusting on the timing and fuel-screw(NA only; turbo motors should have it fully cranked up), though - those are easy and make major differences to how a truck runs.

 

[HS108]

Why don't you just rent a timing meter from @icanfixall to find out exactly where you are at timing wise.

Come one guys we are just guessing and shooting in the dark until we know what his timing is...

Eyeballing it and going by sound is NEVER a reliable method!!!


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[FORDF250HDXLT]

Why don't you just rent a timing meter from @icanfixall to find out exactly where you are at timing wise.

Come one guys we are just guessing and shooting in the dark until we know what his timing is...

Eyeballing it and going by sound is NEVER a reliable method!!!


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I'm not guessing lol.I can assure you,he can rent a meter and set the timing at 8 BTDC +/- 2* and he'll still be rolling coal at idle,whether he sets it at 6,7,8,9,10 BTDC or anywhere in between.That black smoke,that's due to an IP with it's fuel setting far too high for his truck.I mean,it's not even in the ballpark (it's not Mel's fault by any means of course.He had to set it somewhere)

Macrobb couldn't be more accurate when says;

"Also, your smoke with the revs? Too much fuel. You are overfueling it because the screw is turned up too high. You go up a steep grade like this and you'll be spewing a cloud of black smoke behind you, unless you are /very/ light on the throttle."

If there was an EGT gauge hooked up,the driver would quickly realize the truck is extremely dangerous to drive in it's current state.No amount of timing adjustment can correct this amount of excessive fuel.It just can't.
I've played with my timing when I was N/A all across the board and no matter where I set it,it never resulted in bellowing out black smoke under load,much less just at idle like this.This engine can melt down in a hurry and no timing adjustment can save it from it's impending doom.

(yeah,I'm against rolling coal for mother earth.We all know this lol but putting that aside,I'm primarily concerned about his engine here.)

 

[Thewespaul]

I'm calling timing and if not that injectors. New pump plus worn injectors doesn't usually work well together... I drove like that for 30k and it sucked but that's how it goes when you have to wait for the funds to come in. I also recommend you get an egt gauge if possible

Interesting you bring up rebuilding pumps @Macrobb, I had to replace the governor assembly on a truck and I resealed the pump while I was in there, really it's no harder than rebuilding a carburetor, especially if you take pictures while disassembling it. However the difference with these pumps is to properly rebuild them you must flow them in a injection pump machine, which costs big bucks. Unfortunately this step is necessary in order set the pump up at a correct fuel output level and make sure every injector is receiving the same amount of fuel. This step done incorrectly can cause a runaway situation which is no fun...
It's definitely a bummer we can't do full rebuilds at home like we can with our injectors but luckily we have some repudible rebuilders in the idi community

 

[Macrobb]

Unfortunately this step is necessary in order set the pump up at a correct fuel output level and make sure every injector is receiving the same amount of fuel. This step done incorrectly can cause a runaway situation which is no fun...

I'd like more information here. It seems to me that every injector will receive the same amount of fuel in the as-machined condition of the head/rotor ports
(aka: If it was machined correctly, they will all be the same. If it wasn't(or wore out), they won't, and there is nothing you can adjust to change it).

As far as 'correct fuel output level', watching the video shows me that it is controlled simply by the fuel screw(at WOT) and the metering valve(at all other times).
If you have too much fuel at WOT(smoke), adjust the screw. If too little, turn it down. If the governor response is odd, adjust the governor assembly length a little with the hex-nut. Longer will tend to increase idle RPM(everything else being equal) and push more on the flyweights, resulting in slightly higher RPM cutoff.

 

[Thewespaul]

Macrobb instead of hijacking this thread with our pump discussion I'll pm you some answers and with some interesting literature to read on

Adamsanders, did you in fact get a mini moose pump? Your first post you said you ordered a moose junior, which has entirely too much fuel for a stock na truck, and would explain the smoke.

 

[adamsanders]

Macrobb instead of hijacking this thread with our pump discussion I'll pm you some answers and with some interesting literature to read on

Adamsanders, did you in fact get a mini moose pump? Your first post you said you ordered a moose junior, which has entirely too much fuel for a stock na truck, and would explain the smoke.

No it's definitely a Mini Moose.
I realize it's hard to see in the picture.

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Thewespaul]

Awesome glad you got that pump

 

[adamsanders]

I'd like more information here. It seems to me that every injector will receive the same amount of fuel in the as-machined condition of the head/rotor ports
(aka: If it was machined correctly, they will all be the same. If it wasn't(or wore out), they won't, and there is nothing you can adjust to change it).

As far as 'correct fuel output level', watching the video shows me that it is controlled simply by the fuel screw(at WOT) and the metering valve(at all other times).
If you have too much fuel at WOT(smoke), adjust the screw. If too little, turn it down. If the governor response is odd, adjust the governor assembly length a little with the hex-nut. Longer will tend to increase idle RPM(everything else being equal) and push more on the flyweights, resulting in slightly higher RPM cutoff.

I have a question regarding this. My problem is not simple black smoke at WOT. It happens at any thing above half throttle or so? How does my fuel screw affect this at all? I did not get a chance to call Mel today. This evening though I did pull my timing another dimes width toward the driver side. Still the same amount of smoke. Truck starts faster after sitting for 24 hours than any of my gas vehicles. I'm afraid to drive it like this from what you guys have said but it blows my mind that such a healthy sounding engine can be so dangerous. Would engine damage be more likely on long trips or when being ran hard? This will never be a long distance truck for me is the reason I ask.

 

[HS108]

Call Mel

No one knows the moose pumps like he does.


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[Macrobb]

I have a question regarding this. My problem is not simple black smoke at WOT. It happens at any thing above half throttle or so? How does my fuel screw affect this at all?

It depends on RPM and load as to what "half throttle" produces.

What happens is that the governor assembly is a spring and flyweights. It attempts to keep a balance between the throttle pushing it one way and the force excerted by the flyweights going the other. Lets say you start the truck and rev it up tp 2000 RPM unloaded. You didn't press the throttle very far at all, and the amount of fuel is very small... at least, once it gets to 2000. If you very quickly moved the accelerator to that 2000 RPM position from idle, the governor would be pushed back by the throttle, and there is little force from the flyweights pushing back... so the metering valve snaps open and you get full fueling. As the RPMs rise, the flyweights produce more force, which pushes on the governor and closes the metering valve until you reach a balance again.

Now, if you put a load on the engine, what happens? The RPMs droop(if the throttle is held constant) and the governor adds more fuel.

What I'm trying to say is, depending on load and RPM, even half throttle could easily hold the metering valve wide open.

Just follow the adjustment procedure and write down how far you adjusted the fuel screw. Just start with 3 flats of the allen and see how it does.

You can always go back.

I did not get a chance to call Mel today. This evening though I did pull my timing another dimes width toward the driver side. Still the same amount of smoke. Truck starts faster after sitting for 24 hours than any of my gas vehicles. I'm afraid to drive it like this from what you guys have said but it blows my mind that such a healthy sounding engine can be so dangerous.

It's not when it's sounding healthy that's the problem... it's when it's smoking. Smoke = unburned fuel = high EGTs and a good chance of burning a valve or piston if you do it for too long.

No, smoking for a few seconds isn't going to hurt anything... but going up a long grade smoking like that for 5 minutes? Yeah, damage is likely.

 

[adamsanders]

So a little update. I talked to Mel and showed him the videos I posted in this thread. He did not seem overly concerned about this level of smoke and indicated it was fairly normal. Furthermore, he did say worn injectors with low pop pressures will cause more fuel to be injected so my problem lies there as well. So for the time being im going to drive it gently as is for a little while and look at getting some injectors. I do have some air intrusion to track down which may stem from the return line kit I installed which this thread was originally meant to address. However it seems to me that a leaking return line wouldn't matter while running because it isn't on the supply side? The truck fires instantly after sitting overnight so it may be a FSV or tank issue.

 

[IDIBRONCO]

If it fires up right away after sitting all night, your return lines/caps aren't the problem either since they would cause a hard start too. It seems like your problem is only when the engine's running.Is your lift pump pumping enough fuel?

 

[adamsanders]

Possibly. It is about 2 months old. I've noticed that after breaking open the fuel system, the truck takes an obscene amount of cranking to prime. After the fuel *gets* up to the filter head, the fuel squirts out with significant pressure. I think I may have a restriction in the line somewhere that comes and goes. The symptom I'm experiencing now is a sudden burst of power and then the truck tries to die. It does this after running for a while when it is good and hot.

 

[IDIBRONCO]

Unfortunately for you, you may be on to something with the restriction. I say it that way because if you have to try to find that, I feel sorry for you. Here's another suggestion, just from personal experience and may not apply to you. When I first got my Bronco going, I had a problem that sounds similar to yours. I had run a generic electric fuel pump in min fuel system. I mounted it on the passenger's side fender. I ran some rubber fuel line up from the steel fuel line on the frame rail, into a filter, into the pump, and then back down to the lift pump. One of the hose clamps on either the filter or the fuel pump on the fender was loose. I could see which one it was because the fuel line was wet right on the end at the loose clamp. After I tightened the clamp up, no more problems. Since it was placed so high with a big low area before and after it, there was no start up issues. I installed the electric pump as a "just in case" for if the lift pump went bad so I could still get home. It was also nice for installing fuel filters. Just lube the seal, install the filter, hit the toggle switch, push the schrader valve, and wait for the air to stop coming out. EASY!