Well, that was short lived....(sigh)

[RedTruck]

A lot of good ideas here. Sucks that you're way the heck up there and most of us are down here zigg...all we can do is come up with ideas and not give you a hand.

So, here's my contribution:

I just reread Scotty Beretz problems with his rig, after having studs put in. He had a cracked block as a result of some unresolved issues. It seems like everyone here suspected that it was the shop that caused the problem...possibly not cleaning out the head bolt holes prior to installation. Maybe ARP made a bad batch of studs. I remember a thread quite a while back stating that they had to make a new batch so the wait was longer. I would make a guess that you probably bought your studs around the same time Scotty Beretz got his.

I think your idea of pulling a stud and checking it, or Scott's (SLE2115) idea of pulling the studs 1x1 and reinstalling your old bolts isn't a bad idea. Just doing it on one side and readministering your leak test seems like it would at least rule out this possibility. It could possibly save you the expense of a set of head gaskets.

Hope it all works out for the best Zigg. Good luck,

Paul

 

[dsblack]

I agree, I would pull the studs and replace 1X1 as far back as you can, and repeat this test. I know you can not get the last few out with the engine in the truck, But if it goes to what is expected (no leak) then you at least have the cause, and are not pulling the heads without knowing...

You did clean out the holes before installing the studs? if not, maybe there is crap in the hole, and the stud is not seated. You seem like you would not make that mistake, but we all skip somehing occasionally, in the rush of getting it done...
Keep us posted!

 

[zigg]

I concure, it's time to MAKE SURE the studs are torqued properly.

What was the procedure on installing them? Did DAS install them, or did you?
Did the engine come complete, then you removed the heads and installed studs?

I had DAS bore out the block.030thou, and they give their word that it was all magnafluxed etc. and looked real good. New pistons, rings, bearings lifters etc.

My own heads didn't pass, they were throw aways, so I bought some from them(newly rebuilt). I did all the assembly myself, and I'm meticulous and as **** as anyone can be.I had the engine on a stand in my shop,I did it over the winter, and I had all the time in the world to work on it. I cleaned the block beyond reason, and the heads too. I bottom tapped all the holes prior to installation, and I devised a tiny tube connected to my shop vac to go down them and clean them out. I have my own snap-on torque wrench, which I've used a bunch of times on engines(including my present 6.9 in my '86) and I also double checked the torques with a borrowed one from my cousin which is a Proto-professional model. I torqued to 85 ft. lbs in 10lb increments, I did the cross sequence as described, then the line sequence to finish, and I re-checked it like 5 times!!

This morning I went out and pulled out 3 separate studs, one at a time, one on the intake side, one in the middle, and one on the exhaust side, and measured everything. The studs do not bottom out in the holes(there's about 1/4" left at the bottom, they just run out of threads, and there's still about 1/4" of thread left at the top when they're done up, so they aren't running out of thread at the top. The center row obviously connects with coolant passages. The bottom of the hole is solid, but there is coolant on the stud as it came out, and I do remember that coolant bubbled up/out of 3 of them when I first started the engine up, and I remember thinking, "well, that's odd", but that still doesn't account for compression gasses getting into the coolant system.

I just can't figure out any way that the studs could have any thing to do with it. They just clamp the heads down, the same as the bolts, and a clamp is a clamp.

The only thing I can come up with that might explain this whole thing, is something like; what if both of the torque wrenches I have are out by 30 pounds or so, and that when I'm torqueing to 85, it is actually only 55, but that sure seams far-fetched to me, especially when I used my snap on a couple years ago on my 6.9 with bolts, and it's logged over 50,000 with no issues at all. Could I split both heads all over the place if they overtorqued by the same amount?

What I'm really worried about is pulling both heads, and finding absolutely nothing wrong with either of them, or the gaskets. Then what?

(sigh)

Zigg

 

[icanfixall]

What gaskets did you use on the rebuild? Why not find another torque wrench and see if any studs are not torqued properly. I'll ship my wrench up to you if that helps. It was calibrated about 1 year ago and I used it on my motor. Can't say if its properly calibrated or not because I don't have the testing stand to verify it. Mine is a 150 lb Sears my wife bought me about 36 years ago. Its the click type and not the spring bar kind. I feel the spring bar type are better at staying accurate but very hard to use ....

 

[zigg]

Pulled the drivers' side head today. It is weird. I can't see anything specific to be the cause of all this, but curiously enough, you can see on the head between the cylinders, and all the way out to the outside, that there has been coolant between the head and the block where there shouldn't be. Not just in one little place either, but all over, mostly on the exhaust side.

I'm still going to take the heads in to be checked, but it seems pretty weird to me.

Looks like head gaskets are not making a good seal for whatever reason, or not torqued properly(I just can't believe that) or something else.

What if the pre-cups sit too high, or too low, then, there would be a little crack at the outside of each where the cup and head meet, at the fire ring, and even if torque is right, that crack won't be sealed.?

Or warped heads, that won't sit flat....

Just grasping at straws here, but sure seems suspicios.

I'll take them in next week, and we'll see what comes up.

Zigg

 

[sle2115]

Zigg,

There is a spec for the pre-cup height, but from what I remember, it was quite a range. I still would insist on a pressure test, not just a magnaflux. If you have ever seen a head magnafluxed, you would understand why. It is a great tool for finding cracks that are out where you can see them, but many can go un-noticed if they are up in a combustion chamber etc. Pressure testing will be show any of them as they will pump the head up with air or water, and look for leaks. If they use air, as we did, we then sprayed the heads with soapy water and any leaks will bubble like the dickens. Air will leak in many places where water will not, as we had proven on our pressure test bench many times as it would do both, at any rate, it was like $20 per head and is money well spent in a case like this.

Good luck buddy, this sure sucks and I hope you can FIND the problem cause I know it will cause loss of sleep otherwise.
Scott

 

[RLDSL]

Hey zigg, I thought I posted this , but I guess I was sleeping, it doesn't apper to have shown up, but I was wondering how cold was it outside when you were torquing the heads down? Clicker torque wrenches are calibrated at moderate temperature and when it gets good and cold out, the things start reading less than you are really putting on the bolts. I learned ( the hard way ) to put the things inside to warm up before torquing anything critical when it gets cold out or you can twist the head off a bolt before the things will click.
If it was down much below 0 deg c out, you could easily have cranked them down 20-30 ft lbs higher than the wrench was set for and those studs wouldn't strip out like the bolts....but something would have to give. Those gaskets are only going to compress so far.

-------Robert

 

[zigg]

Robert

Nope, it was in my shop in my basement, albeit in the winter, but I have heat in there, so it was probably somewhere around 60 degrees.

Paul at DAS suggested I re-torque to 95 ft lbs and see if it changes anything, but I didn't have heart to do that. The gaskets look like it didn't really get torqued down enough.

I'm thinking I'm going to try to see if I can somehow find out if my torque wrench(s) are way out, or maybe just time to buy m'self a nice new one.

Either way, I'll take the head I've got off this week, and the gasket off the engine, and take it into a reputable shop, and have them have a look at it, and as soon as I find out something, I'll report back, I'm sure there's a few guys out there that want to know what's going on here as much as I do....

Time will tell..

I'm off for a couple days of rest and resurection with my 17yr old daughter up to the ski hill tomorrow, so catch up with you guys later on.

Zigg

 

[RLDSL]

Robert


I'm off for a couple days of rest and resurection with my 17yr old daughter up to the ski hill tomorrow, so catch up with you guys later on.

Zigg

Going skiing....I'm seriously jelous. Enjoy the snow for me. It was about 80 deg f out here today and I just came up from the shop after getting eating alive by skeeters. Have fun.
----------Robert

 

[dsblack]

Did you check the block for flatness?

 

[f-two-fiddy]

"Paul at DAS suggested I re-torque to 95 ft lbs and see if it changes anything, but I didn't have heart to do that. The gaskets look like it didn't really get torqued down enough."

I don't know why you wouldn't want to do that. The studs should handle it, with no problems.

 

[Agnem]

Like I said Zigg, send your torque wrench to teamtorque.com. They will calibrate it and send you a loaner that is already calibrated while they are doing it. Tell them you heard about them on OB. I got a free calibration a number of years ago for mentioning them in the headgasket article I did at TDS. Mention them in a write up on your site, and they might do the same for you.