Trans noise after rebuild (new clutch and bearings)

[stealth13777]

You wouldn't be able to mess with those gaskets unless you intentionally unbolted the tube the input shaft slides thru when it disappears inside the trans. The TOB rides on the outside of that tube, and tube itself has flange on the transmission end where it bolts to the trans with 4 bolts. There is zero need to mess with that part, and no one ever does, unless they're rebuilding the trans, then it has to come off. So if you never rebuilt the trans itself, just slid the new clutch parts in/on, then chances are it's still how it left the factory. Which of course doesn't mean your input bearing is not on its way out, that could very well still be the case - any idea how many miles on that transmission, and how hard/heavy?

I'm betting 245k based on what I found in the engine. Plus or minus 100k. Fluid looked good, one 'family' truck, and at least the first two family members put money into it (even if some of the work was less than perfect). Based on the bed, never hauled too heavy. Based on the hitch, never pulled too heavy either. But did pull. Seems like a truck someone used for personal and business and the business may have been some type of contracting. Long explanation of my thought process.

T-19s I can't imagine are hard to come by or expensive. I could probably easily swap one and turn this into a project if it needs internal work. Just want to be certain. It's also time for this truck to work or go away.

You mention the fact that the temps change that little. Makes me wonder even more why it doesn't make the noise cold. It's possible the temp isn't the key factor, but rather the fact that things have been moving. Still hard to explain that detail


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[LCAM-01XA]

I honestly doubt it's whether things have been moving or not, as the internals are constantly turning even when idling in neutral. So if movement was the factor, then it should be making the noises pretty much right off the bat.

Hauling and especially pulling heavy are relative terms - our old creeper-gear NP435 laughs at pretty much anything we hook up to the truck even with the 3.55 gears, the stupid ZF on the other hand absolutely freakin hates even backing up the truck empty unless we shift into low range. The T19 has nice and low reverse gear, but the 1st is still fairly high 4:1 and thus puts more load on the input shaft than getting the same weight to move with a lower-geared transmission. So my point is it's possible the input shaft bearing took more abuse that you may think based on the rest of the truck, of course I may be way off base here but it's still something to consider.

I'm not sure how the availability of older 4-speeds is in your neck of the woods, some areas of the country appear to favor automatics for whatever reason so whatever sticks you may find there tend to be in rode hard and put away wet work trucks. But what you have to remember is T19 is not your only choice here, you can also use NP435 and T18 - those will have creeper 1st gear and it will be non-synchronized so shifting into it while still slowing down won't be easy, but they will move mountains with your truck just idling, in high range at the t-case. Even with the T19 you have gearing options, there are 3 of them - the close ratio you have now, a wide-ratio that was standard on gasoline engines and also 83 and some 84 diesels, and the seemingly very rare creeper-gear that lived in '83-'86 4x4 F250s (and possibly F350s) with the 460 engine. So you have quite the choice there, they all bolt up the exact same way and use the exact same bellhousing and clutch setup and transmission mount and crossmember, heck even the rubber boots for the shifters appear to be identical. Just whatever you get make darn sure it has very little side (radial) in the input shaft, anything significant is an indicator of worn bearings inside the trans.

If you don't have to remove the clutch and bellhousing then you don't have to mess with the exhaust either, and the job is reduced to pretty much pull the t-case with its shifter and linkage, yank the transmission shifter out up in the cab (removing the tunnel cover plate also helps quite a bit, it's just a few screws anyways), drop the crossmember, unbolt trans from bellhousing, and pull it out. Install the new one in reverse. I've done it alone start to finish in several hours and our truck has a rather funky crossmember setup that takes a while to remove. Just make sure you have a good transmission jack, as these things tend to be quite heavy and if you drop a T18 or 19 onto its tail housing there's a good chance you'll damage it (it's aluminum, NP435 uses a cast iron monsterpiece tho).

 

[stealth13777]

Thanks for the detailed write up. Now I just need to get out there and narrow down that noise so I know what to attack. I'm still holding out hope someone looks at the thread/ video and goes 'yeah, mine did that and it was this'. Pretty much can't be but the clutch, throwout bearing, pilot bearing, or input bearing, least that's what I've deduced.

Guess it couldn't hurt to start looking for a spare. I'd hate to swap and have the problem be outside the trans, but hey parts are always useful. Thanks for telling me what to look for. And I would not have known I could leave the bell housing alone.


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[LCAM-01XA]

Oh you can most definitely leave the bell bolted to the engine! Saves a whole lot of troubles, as you don't have to lift the truck quite as high (you can lay the trans on its side and drag it in underneath and then upright it), also no messing with the clutch or the horror that is (or at least can be) the slave cylinder. May have to heat and bend the shifter though, depending on what model year truck you get your "new" transmission from - they could all be had well back into the 70s, and that vintage shifters don't clear the '80s cab interiors very well. Or you could just hit a junkyard and grab the shifter out of an '80s truck with the trans like your new one, they were all available back then so it's just a matter of finding one.

Sorry I can't be of more help actually diagnosing your noise, our experience with 4-speeds behind an IDI has been limited to one ~90k close-ratio T19 and one creeper-gear NP435 of similar mileage. They both groan horribly under load at low (under 1000) RPMs, but then they quiet down. Quiet at idle too as long as idle speed is above 700, which it is.

 

[stealth13777]

So, I am debating between a full rebuild, or just doing the input bearing and throwout bearing. If I have it apart again I'm doing the throwout whether it's an issue or not. Is there a way I can test the input bearing while I have it out just as a double check?

Two more questions: can I replace the input bearing without pulling the trans apart? and is doing just the one bearing a bad idea like I think it is?

I'll throw out there that I am interested in purchasing a good T19 if someone has one. Not ready to put the wanted ad out, but floating the idea. If it were a known good one, that would be my favorite option. Do a simple swap and move on. I could then bring my current one home and learn how to rebuild a trans at whatever pace I wanted. I know rebuild kits run $120- $210 from looking, so I wouldn't mind paying a decent sum for shipping if we could make a deal. Trying the idea with forum members first. I would consider the ZF5 swap, but they are harder to find, more work, and more money. I'm currently fed up enough so one more straw could push me into selling the truck. I just want to be able to use it without worrying so that maybe I'll remember why I bought it in the first place.

 

[stealth13777]

Bump. Someone knows what I need to do if it's the input bearing (which I'm pretty confident it is). Ie how hard of a job, if I need to do a full rebuild or just that one bearing, etc. Spare no details.

Plus exposure maybe someone who has a good t19 sitting around after a zf swap will see this.


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[LCAM-01XA]

We have two under-100k T19s we're not using nor do we plan to use (1st gear not low enough for our needs). Unfortunately they are not near FL. And we're not anywhere near them right now either. Them things are like 150 lbs anyways, shipping would be a murder.

The only way I know of testing the input shaft bearings is by wiggling the input shaft itself, it should not move much sideways at all. Of course that is done when the transmission is out of the truck and there is no clutch on the shaft... Haven't rebuilt one of them things yet, ours didn't need it and don't know anyone who needed one done either. On Pirate there was a thread about how you rebuild a NP435, I'd imagine the t19 is somewhat similar. Thought I had it bookmarked but I can't seem to find it...

 

[stealth13777]

Alright, so it looks like this thing did come with a ball bearing input bearing. Answered my own question, but can't delete the post.

I'm looking to drop everything, expecting to replace the throwout and input bearings, but inspect and replace anything else that I find suspect (hopefully nothing but we will see).

 

[LCAM-01XA]

Your typical ball bearings do not use preload as they cannot handle axial loads, take a look at the baring and if it looks EXACTLY the same from both sides then it's a radial-only bearing and thus no preload. There are ball bearings out there that can do axial loads, when you look at one of those you'll notice the "gap ring" between the races one one side is larger diameter than the other side, with those bearings it is critical to install it in the proper orientation - if you flip it around by accident it will try to come apart on you when the loads are applied. Not sure what the T19 has, have a look-see when you pop it out and post some pics if you can. Did you find decent instructions somewhere on how to rebuild a T19?

 

[stealth13777]

Your typical ball bearings do not use preload as they cannot handle axial loads, take a look at the baring and if it looks EXACTLY the same from both sides then it's a radial-only bearing and thus no preload. There are ball bearings out there that can do axial loads, when you look at one of those you'll notice the "gap ring" between the races one one side is larger diameter than the other side, with those bearings it is critical to install it in the proper orientation - if you flip it around by accident it will try to come apart on you when the loads are applied. Not sure what the T19 has, have a look-see when you pop it out and post some pics if you can. Did you find decent instructions somewhere on how to rebuild a T19?

I did, I'll add them to the thread. Although I'm planning to just do the one bearing versus a full rebuild. The pictures on Rockauto show a specific bearing, I'll try to get it on here too, and then take pics of my trans whenever I find time to work on it.


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[LCAM-01XA]

No luck finding just a complete good used transmission? How about these:

http://gainesville.craigslist.org/pts/4997788662.html (T18 so creeper 1st gear, will bolt on in place of your t19, IIRC it also shares the same aluminum tailhousing so you kinda get a spare there in case you ever break one)

http://gainesville.craigslist.org/pts/4950029687.html (NP435, pretty much identical in function as the T18 above, except it's somewhat stronger as it has cast iron tailhousing, not that you're likely to ever have an issue with that)

 

[stealth13777]

Interesting, I must be typing something wrong into craigslist. That first one is tempting. Any idea what transfer case that is? (If you know I won't have to look it up and guess; very new to this). I very well may go after that tomorrow (for the right price; not that his is bad but...) and getting a spare transfer case out of the deal might make up my mind. Even if it isn't the same one I have, if it would work (without driveshaft modification), would be worth it. I'm in for the night anyway not feeling well so I'll do some research.

I started thinking I might could just change that one bearing a move on, got to decide what I want to do now! Good to have options.

Looks like that's an NP208, which sounds like a straight bolt in swap. Makes the deal more enticing. Even though I have learned that my 1345 is a stonger case. Could keep the 208 as a spare or sell it. Wish I had gone through my 4x4 functionality (no idea on diff/ hubs, although based on appearance u-joints up there on the half shafts are needed at a minimum. All others have been replaced on the truck.)

 

[LCAM-01XA]

The case is indeed a NP208. We have that in our truck, tho it's of the stronger variety with the bolt-on rear yoke. This one tho has the slip-yoke setup, so it probably won't work with your driveshaft based on the fact that I have never ever seen a slip-yoke BW1345 - now if you had a 1356 then yes, you could use it for a spacer, as unless you somehow ended up with a Bronco case the 1356 used in trucks have the slip-yoke setup as well. Easier to just keep your transfer case anyways, linkages are not always the same between them all, heck even from one model year to the next they sometimes differ.

I searched for "ford 4 speed", this usually gives you results for pretty much any 4-speed transmission behind a Ford engine, Toploaders included. Especially since many sellers don't know and can't be bothered to educate themselves on how to identify exactly what they have, they just know it's a 4-speed and sometimes whether it has a creeper or "granny" gear (but in case of the T19 even that doesn't help much, as there are actually two of those with different ratios, the true creeper being quite rare it seems).

 

[stealth13777]

I will probably never know what it was. Sold it (up front about the noise) because I did not have the time or money anymore to keep working on it. In a perfect world, I would have kept it. New owner should use it more than I ever could have and hopefully will get years of good use