Slow crank after possible overheat

Luke_IDI

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Ok, I figured out why I am only seeing 50v. Looked in the manual for the scope and max input voltage is +/-5v. Using a 10:1 attenuator probe, that means I am just seeing maximum voltage. I ordered another attenuator to put in series. Stay tuned for what voltage looks like accurately measured!
 

Luke_IDI

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I have a better update than the last. I found some videos over the weekend suggesting that injectors whose armature to poppet body clearance has fallen below spec due to wear sometimes have stiction issues due to the oil in that small gap creating a suction effect which the magnetic force of the solenoid cannot overcome. In this case, an injector shim kit can usually get some more life out of worn injectors. Given the driver description of oil sludge, I thought perhaps these injectors were on the low side of spec such that too-thick oil could make its way into the gap and cause stiction.

I pulled the number 6 and number 8 solenoids with the intention of measuring the armature clearance. Number 8 was below spec, while number 6 was at the lower limit of spec (a .002” feeler gauge barely slid underneath). I did, however, see something remarkable. Here is a picture of the first solenoid I pulled (#8):

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There is a very significant amount of debris in the oil there. The pieces are reminiscent of carbon buildup: small, hard flakes that crack when pushed between pad and nail of the finger.

The same sort type of debris was found beneath the number 6 solenoid.

With these two easily accessible solenoids removed and cleaned, I decided to repeat the injector buzz test. Here is a video of the test post-cleaning.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

It’s easy to hear that injectors 6 and 8 now sound like a normal clatter, as opposed to the weak buzz of the other six.

Once I remove and clean the rest of the solenoids/armatures, I’d be quite surprised if the truck didn’t start. Getting the truck to start and run enough to get it to a storage area is what I have been asked to do. However, I am left to wonder what this debris is and how it got there. I’ll recommend to the owners that they do frequent oil changes until they are more comfortable with the truck. Any other suggested actions in a case like this?
 

Rdnck84_03

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If the injectors are worn to the point of stiction. A full synthetic oil will make it much easier to start, especially when the temps drop.

I have switched 2 of mine over to synthetic because they are due for injectors but I don't want to pony up the money. I'm running Rotella t6 15-40 in my '99, running the chevron delo 400 15-40 in my wife's '00.

When I first bought my '99 in '10 it wouldn't start at temps anything under 50 degrees F without the block heater being plugged in for atleast an hour. Last winter I was able to start it at -15 F with only glow plugs.

James
 

lotzagoodstuff

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However, I am left to wonder what this debris is and how it got there. I’ll recommend to the owners that they do frequent oil changes until they are more comfortable with the truck. Any other suggested actions in a case like this?
Best guess is that is carbon build up from infrequent oil changes. If it was my truck, I'd suggest a couple things if they want to keep it a long time:

Clean and reshim all the solenoids. My truck had some cold start roughness at just over 100K, and all the solenoids needed to be shimmed. It made a noticable improvement on cold starts and cold idle quality.

Second, while you are shimming the solenoids, you are only a bit more work from pulling the injectors and putting new orings on them. If oil changes were in frequent, and it was in fact overheated, the orings might be a bit cooked. Again, your almost there already, and the injector oring kit is pretty cheap.

Lastly, I'd run full synthetic oil and a double dose of AutoRX and pull the oil filter and do a careful cutaway and inspection of what the media is catching. I'd keep doing it until I was satisfied with what i saw inside the filter. My bet is you'll need to do 3 filters and at least 500 miles.

Good luck in reviving what appears to be a poorly serviced Powderchoke
 

greenskeeper

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If the injectors are worn to the point of stiction. A full synthetic oil will make it much easier to start, especially when the temps drop.

I have switched 2 of mine over to synthetic because they are due for injectors but I don't want to pony up the money. I'm running Rotella t6 15-40 in my '99, running the chevron delo 400 15-40 in my wife's '00.

When I first bought my '99 in '10 it wouldn't start at temps anything under 50 degrees F without the block heater being plugged in for atleast an hour. Last winter I was able to start it at -15 F with only glow plugs.

James
5w-40? 15w-40 is the standard oil and doesn't give easier cold weather starts compared to 5w-40
 

greenskeeper

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I have a better update than the last. I found some videos over the weekend suggesting that injectors whose armature to poppet body clearance has fallen below spec due to wear sometimes have stiction issues due to the oil in that small gap creating a suction effect which the magnetic force of the solenoid cannot overcome. In this case, an injector shim kit can usually get some more life out of worn injectors. Given the driver description of oil sludge, I thought perhaps these injectors were on the low side of spec such that too-thick oil could make its way into the gap and cause stiction.

I pulled the number 6 and number 8 solenoids with the intention of measuring the armature clearance. Number 8 was below spec, while number 6 was at the lower limit of spec (a .002” feeler gauge barely slid underneath). I did, however, see something remarkable. Here is a picture of the first solenoid I pulled (#8):

You must be registered for see images attach


There is a very significant amount of debris in the oil there. The pieces are reminiscent of carbon buildup: small, hard flakes that crack when pushed between pad and nail of the finger.

The same sort type of debris was found beneath the number 6 solenoid.

With these two easily accessible solenoids removed and cleaned, I decided to repeat the injector buzz test. Here is a video of the test post-cleaning.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

It’s easy to hear that injectors 6 and 8 now sound like a normal clatter, as opposed to the weak buzz of the other six.

Once I remove and clean the rest of the solenoids/armatures, I’d be quite surprised if the truck didn’t start. Getting the truck to start and run enough to get it to a storage area is what I have been asked to do. However, I am left to wonder what this debris is and how it got there. I’ll recommend to the owners that they do frequent oil changes until they are more comfortable with the truck. Any other suggested actions in a case like this?
Yes it should at least flow oil from the injector spouts with the debris removed. You might as well do a shim kit while you have them apart if they are below spec.
 

Rdnck84_03

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I am running 15w-40. The advantage to the full synthetic is that it maintains close to the same viscosity when below 0F as it has at high ambient temps.

James
 

Luke_IDI

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I’m happy to report that I got the truck running today.

After cleaning all of the debris off of the solenoids, a buzz test showed only 5 of 8 injectors buzzing strong. I measured clearance on a couple of injectors and found them at the very bottom end of spec or below spec, so I decided to order a shim kit, thinking stiction may be an issue. I bought a kit on Amazon for the fast ship time. Installing it was a maddening experience. The injector armature screw is a 4.5 mm external Torx plus, a size not included in any socket set I could find. The kit comes with the “Nintendo bit,” which only half fits—the socket is too shallow to engage with the head of the screw all the way, and I stripped two screw heads because of this. I found that one of the injectors had already been replaced, and this screw was particularly tight—maybe even loctited—I could not get it off. The other seven I successfully removed, though. I ground down a regular E6 external Torx socket to fit, which seems to provide much more engagement with the screw head than the Nintendo bit. Had no problem after that. Luckily (?) the kit comes with replacement armature screws which are cap screws that take a regular Torx bit. I finished shimming the injectors and did a buzz test, expecting to hear all 8 buzzing strong. I heard only 3 injectors buzzing strong! So I try a couple of different shim combinations on an easy to access injector before I realize that the heads of the cap screws are protruding above the surface of the armature plate, again blocking the armature from moving up! Wow….luckily I was able to grind them down so that they sat flush, while maintaining some amount of engagement with the Torx bit, although not as much as I would have liked. This kit attempted to solve the problem of the Nintendo bit, and I ended up with a different version of the same problem it was trying to solve, with a few hours of headache thrown in. Moral of the story: do not buy this Amazon shim kit! But it seems none of the reputable shops sell shim kits, as they’d rather sell a set of injectors. Can anyone recommend a better shim kit for the future?

At any rate, after basically redoing the entire job minus the measurement, all 8 injectors buzzed strong. It fired up after just a couple seconds of cranking with no glow plugs (relay is no good).

Looking up underneath the truck today, I happened to notice some rusty coolant residue. I’m thinking maybe the truck did indeed overheat due to low coolant. Perhaps something in the injector solenoid melted and leached out, forming these weird deposits? I’m going to pressure test the cooling system tomorrow and see what I find.

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Luke_IDI

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Thanks for the ebay link guys. The pictures are all the same as the Amazon listing I bought from except for the last picture, which warns that other sellers have plagiarized his instructions while selling the wrong tool. Looks like I fell victim to the counterfeiting scam. I left a bad review, but I’m tempted to send the remaining shims and junk tools back as a retaliatory measure.

In other news, I noticed some rusty water residue in the engine bay. Pressurized the cooling system but it held pressure well and I saw/heard no leaks, so buttoned up valve covers, etc., and filled with coolant. The owner of the van told me he drained 2 gallons of coolant out of it post-breakdown. It took 5 1/2 gallons. Capacity is about 8 gallons. Running on half its coolant capacity might cause an overheat. Maybe it is consuming a small amount of coolant into the combustion chamber over time. Something to monitor in the future. Perhaps the debris found under the injector solenoids was some kind of plastic material that oozed out of the injectors during the period of high heat.

James and Greenskeeper, many thanks for sticking with this wild goose chase of a diagnostic journey! It’s been a tough one, but the pleasure of finding the solution is usually commensurate with the difficulty of the problem.
 
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