Should I switch to synthetic?

hce

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BE AWARE that there are a number of motor oils labelled as 'FULL SYNTHETIC' WHICH ARE NOT MADE FROM SYNTHETIC OIL BASES, They are made from highly refined high quality conventional CRUDE OIL. Technically and scientifically speaking, these are NOT SYNTHETIC MOTOR OILS but after a law suit in 1999 these manufacturers are legally allowed to label them as FULL SYNTHETIC motor oil. The video inserted below will explain this to you as well as the FIVE groups of oil bases used to manufacture motor oil from the least expensive conventional motor oils through the best synthetic motor oils. It will also explain what to look for in choosing a TRUE synthetic motor oil
True but misleading. Highly refined refers severely hydrocracked crude Group III. Synthetics are made from the same bubblin crude, Oil that is, black gold, Texas tea, but chemicals are used to "synthesis" the crude into the base stock, which more precisely forms the molecules (group IV). Group V includes the non-petroleum synthetics which is pretty irrelevant to this discussion.
 

Fixnstuff

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I apologize again for my posts being so long but this should be well worth reading

The reasons I chose to use synthetic motor oil and what I chose to use for a filter [one that I find very impressive]

Aside from the better lubrication and commonly known benefits of true synthetic motor oils, my first objective is extended oil change intervals.

In addition: I learned that although conventional oils have virtually no shelf life concerns, THAT is ONLY when they are stored in original containers! That does NOT apply to engine oil IN THE ENGINE after it has been used. Conventional Diesel engine oils are very high in detergents (I think that synthetic oils are even higher in detergent additives) and that is a good thing. After it has picked up the normal contaminates, including soot, those contaminates (at least the soot for sure and probably most of the other contaminates) are held in suspension. That's why the oil very quickly turns black. It's the soot being held in suspension and tending not to settle out of the oil.

While held in suspension, these contaminates can break down conventional motor oil in 2 years, even if the truck is hardly ever driven, or being stored and not driven at all. After the oil has been used and is holding contaminates in suspension those contaminates will continue to break down conventional oil. That's why the original manufacturer's oil change specification recommends changing oil after X,000 miles OR 2 Years. Newer high quality conventional oils may resist breakdown for a bit longer while the vehicle is not being driven much or in storage. Maybe 3 years? I just don't know. It is my understanding that true Synthetic Motor Oil will not break down due to suspended contaminates while the engine is not running or the vehicle is in storage mode.

My personal opinion is that after driving only 1,000 miles during a 2 year period, or even LESS miles, that conventional oil has already broken down enough to consider an oil change. For my truck that would be after driving less than 2,000 miles in two years! I have not changed the oil in 3 years and I have driven 3,000 miles during that time. I've been using Shell Rotella T3 from the oil change I did after buying the truck 3 years ago. It's very good oil in terms of protection but it does use a lot more oil than I would prefer, especially under hard use like towing up hills and over mountain ranges. I think that I've added enough new oil to stretch that 2 year oil change recommendation to 3 years. Or at least that is my current rationalization, and only hoping it's true. I didn't learn about the oil breaking down while the truck is not being used until sometime during the past 3 months.

I want an oil that is not going to break down while the truck is not being used for weeks or months at a time However, (I've been working on the truck when I can and sometimes it takes a long while for me to get things done) NOW I must use this truck as my daily driver, even for short errands (another reason to use synthetic oil) because my two regular use vehicles are not usable. With synthetic oil I won't worry about using the truck for short errands and frequent restarts during the day when that is necessary.

NOW TO THE OIL FILTER OF MY CHOICE!

I am very very impressed with the patented technologies and the patented internal construction of this oil filter AND IT'S NOT INEXPENSIVE. I paid $11.99 each for 3 filters from the manufaturer through Amazon.com with no added tax and FREE shipping (an order over $25.00).
It filters oil particles greater than One Micron in size >1micron, through a patented oil bypass system within the filter so it's listed as filtering down to 2 microns. It's designed for and has been tested extensively for extended performance in both extended oil change intervals in fleets and extended duration before the filter itself needs to be changed.

This is a fairly recent product, I think that fleet tests began in 2011. It is manufactured by SOMS Technologies and it's named the microGreen Extended Performance Oil Filter.

Start by scanning through the linked .pdf below. It's from a presentation by SOMS Technologies at an International Aviation Ground Support Exposition (GSE). That is an important aviation convention held each year in a different world city. (This year it's in Rio De Janeiro Brazil). This presentation was uploaded to the following website for environmental protection information.

The Western Sustainability and Pollution Prevention Network (WSPPN) [ http://wsppn.org/ ] is a cooperative alliance of pollution prevention (P2) programs throughout EPA Region 9 (Arizona, California, Hawaii, Nevada, Trust Territories, and Tribal Lands). The network serves as a technical resource for regional P2 issues through researching, consolidating, and disseminating P2 information. WSPPN was established in 1997 and is run as a service provided by The Business Environmental Program (BEP) at the University of Nevada, Reno.

The presentation to the Aviation Group begins by simply explaining motor oils, conventional, synthetic, then oil additives and eventually the microGreen Filter Technology with cutaway images showing the patented internal design.

I don't now of any oil filters that can match all of the performance characteristics of this filter, including the ~50% extended filter use before having to change filters. I can't say that there aren't any because I have not done enough research to compare different filters. There COULD be a few specialty oil filters that could match it, I don't know of any but I was so impressed with this one I made the decision to try it with my first change to Synthetic Oil.

I found a significant number of very positive user reviews on this filter, one guy using it in a diesel claimed that the oil was STILL CLEAR (not black) after two years of use! I don't recall if he stated how many miles he drove but If that is true even after only 1,000 miles of driving in 2 years, that would be extraordinary in itself !

http://www.wsppn.org/pdf/fleets/GSE_Presentation.pdf


HERE is the manufacturer's web page for the spin on type filters that we use, explaining in different tabs, the Technology, Testing & Validation, Savings and Use. Getting a quick glance at this after not looking at it for several months, it's much more impressive than I recalled and mentioned earlier in this post. This is just one example picked at random:
An independently conducted Life Cycle Analysis (LCA)* demonstrates the environmental impacts of using microGreen spin-on oil filters. The findings indicate that our premium oil filters have a significant impact on the reduction of CO2 emissions, compared to conventional oil filters. Specifically:

  • Using a microGreen filter can yield savings of 55-104 kilograms of CO2 over 30,000 miles, compared to equivalent size conventional spin-on filters that are changed every 3,000-5,000 miles, respectively.
  • These savings are equivalent to 19.79 pounds of CO2 per gallon of oil.
  • Overall, microGreen filters contribute to a 75-85% reduction in CO2 emissions.
Here is the URL:

http://www.microgreenfilter.com/Site/Products/microgreen-spin-on-oil-filter.aspx#category-tabs1
 

david85

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Fixnstuff

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True but misleading. Highly refined refers severely hydrocracked crude Group III. Synthetics are made from the same bubblin crude, Oil that is, black gold, Texas tea, but chemicals are used to "synthesis" the crude into the base stock, which more precisely forms the molecules (group IV). Group V includes the non-petroleum synthetics which is pretty irrelevant to this discussion.

WAIT A MINUTE! LETS NOT GET CONFUSED OVER SOME SEMANTICS.

Synthetic oil is in NO WAY THE SAME as conventional oil refined from conventional crude oil no matter how you refine it!
In that sense YOUR post ranges from misleading to VERY MISLEADING.

However, conventional oil can be greatly improved with additives.

Synthetic oil is made from small man made synthetic molecules, then synthetically changed into equal length long chain synthetic molecules with much better performance properties than shorter chain hydrocarbons refined from crude oil. It doesn't matter how well the crude is refined or 'hydrocracked' they are different molecules and the synthetic molecules have much better qualities, sustain higher temperatures and pressures without degradation for much longer periods, etc. etc.

Like plastics, it doesn't matter if those original small man made synthetic molecules were derived from or 'synthesized' from crude oil, They are no longer conventional crude hydrocarbon based oil at that stage in manufacturing synthetic oil.

Like plastics that are derived from crude oil PLASTICS ARE OBVIOUSLY NOT MOTOR OIL

LIKEWISE 100% SYNTHETIC MOTOR OIL MOLECULES ARE NOT CONVENTIONAL HYDROCARBON OIL REFINED FROM CRUDE OIL.

Look at PAGE 6 of the SOMS company .PDF presentation to that International Aviation Ground Support Expo for a simplified representation of synthetic oil molecules. That's quite easy to understand compared to nomenclature and symbols used in organic chemistry. The molecules in synthetic oil are all the same length, long chain molecules with the same identical properties WHEREAS:

There might be as many as several thousand different hydrocarbon compounds in crude oil
Source: Penn State College of Earth and Mineral Sciences "Petroleum Processing" ... https://www.e-education.psu.edu/fsc432/node/5

By reason of the foregoing that is why 100% synthetic oils are used in aircraft and wherever high performance long lasting oils are required or recommended. I'll bet they are used in virtually all space programs in rockets, satellites and the International Space Station, advanced weapons systems etc. etc.

I said I wasn't a chemist, very true. I did study physical chemistry but not organic chemistry. I actually didn't have that opportunity unfortunately. That was a long time ago, Late 1970's but little has changed. I am familiar with organic chemistry nomenclature and diagrams as long as they don't get too complex and I have looked at A LOT of those in the field of pharmaceutical drugs for about 10+ years, specifically pharmacology which I had to study in order to understand drug research.

Anyhow, if anyone who reads this is a qualified organic chemist, especially if familiar with or willing to look up the differences between conventional motor oils versus synthetic motor oils, and their relative performance it would interesting to see what you have to say about it.

Otherwise I may find the time to search for a document or video that explains it better.

I am convinced that 100% synthetic oils are much better than conventional oils and the so called "Full Synthetic" motor oils made from conventional petroleum base stocks. I don't want people to be dissuaded from using it based on a misinterpretation that synthetic oils are 'the same as' or derived directly from conventional crude oils That's the reason for this reply.

Oil companies want you to BUY CONVENTIONAL MOTOR OIL because they have so much to sell and the most misleading thing is that they are LEGALLY ALLOWED to market conventional oil with the label description of 'FULLY SYNTHETIC'

I do intend to look up that Legal Case as soon as I get the time and then I can report back to thi topic with EXACTLY the issues presented in the case and the Court's final ruling on those issues.



 

david85

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Alright, so I'm looking at the Motul 5W-40 synthetic oil now.

The original API specification for the 6.9L IDI was for SF/CD. Looking here:
http://www.api.org/products-and-ser...ations/oil-categories#tab_diesel-c-categories

CD is obsolete as of 1994 and if I'm reading this right, it was superseded a long time ago by pretty much anything higher up on the chart (is this right??).

SF is obsolete as of 1988.

Motul 5W-40 X-cess API is SN/CF

SN is currently the highest API standard for gasoline engines, while CF is obsolete for diesels. However, CF is current to 1994 diesels with IDI being specifically mentioned.

So SN/CF should be fine, correct?

Now if Motul is manufactured in the EU and regulated by EU rules, then in theory, this would be classified as 100% synthetic, as opposed to "fully synthetic" as per american rules as of 1997+. The american rules allow for "fully synthetic" to still include non-synthetic components, while EU requires 100% synthetic labelled oils to be composed of nothing but synthetic ingredients (again, am I reading this correct??).

Am I on the right track? All these years working on cars and trucks, and only now I'm getting up to speed with this stuff.o_O
 

Fixnstuff

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That's quite a read. Regarding the MicroGreen product, $11USD sounds positively reasonable for a filter of any brand.

Now have a look what we Canadians have to pay:

https://www.amazon.ca/microGreen-MG...=1525743726&sr=8-3&keywords=microGreen+filter
>snip
Sorry for my long posts, it's due to the side effects of pain medicine (morphine tablets 3x/day). It affects my ability to concentrate, causes insomnia/lack of sleep and results in long posts where I sometimes repeat myself or write too much about the same thing. I am also in more pain than usual for the past few days which causes the same affects. One day soon I am just going to have to STOP posting in forums because I haven't been able to correct this problem.

At up to date exchange rates Canadian $47.40 for a single filter = $36.77 US Dollars.

What in the heck is going on with that? A 300% Customs Duty apparently? Retaliation for President Trumps Sanctions Threats?

I noticed the part number you used. That is a TALLER filter so you probably selected "Power Stroke" in the filter search form. The right part number for these IDI's (in the USA at least) is microGreen MG520-9 no matter which year and model of the IDI. The taller MG500-1 is STILL $11.99 here.

I confirmed that all of the IDIs use that part # MG520-9 on the SOMS website.

Yeah, I know you want the taller filter. I should have done that but I was uncertain about the final fit so I ordered the specified filter. It's not going to make much difference in my case, I'm just going to determine and follow a good extended oil change interval protocol for my own situation.


Since you can not get these filters at a fair price (in Canada) I would suggest looking for a high quality filter MADE BY AND FOR 100% Synthetic oil, if that is what you are going to use and I would use it if I was the owner of your truck after all the work you put into it. And if I could afford to try it. How can one possibly lose given the known OIL performance and other benefits?

However, there are other considerations including affordability in my case. I didn't order one of the top brands of 100% Synthetic Oil which I had originally planned on because something else came up with my truck that I want to pay to have repaired ASAP (excess play between the ring and pinion gears and I want to eliminate the crush sleeve) so I had to reduce my budget for the oil. I also need the oil change right away, that can't wait so I had to order a much less expensive synthetic oil. I'm going to describe what I did in a different post.

AMSOIL is one synthetic oil mfr. that makes 100% Synthetic oil. They also provide AMSOIL filters and other AMSOIL products. They have distributors in Canada. I don't know how good the filters are. I think that Mobil 1 also has a "100% Synthetic Motor Oil." I don't remember the price, off-hand and they probably have recommended filters for it. It's been a LONG time since I've researched oil filters in general and there are some notable differences in basic designs and the filter media used but I don't recall any of those having extended FILTER change intervals like the microGreen. The patented technology of the microGreen filters is not going to be easy to beat by getting around the patents but surely other filter manufacturers have something in the works, if not a filter that is almost comparable to it by now. Otherwise just use what you think is the best conventional filter.

Time for another disclaimer from me:

I'm not an expert nor an engineer nor a scientist but I have had a considerable amount of education and study in the past, related to those fields. So I have a pretty good understanding of them. STILL, what I have written is my own opinion based on what I have studied and what I have learned. I try to always give correct and accurate information, not based on hear-say. However, due to health issues I sometimes wander from that discipline and sometimes I can be wrong. When that does occur, (not very often), it's when I am very tired/lack of sleep and that's usually when I am writing posts late at night which is often the case.

I want everyone to make their own 'best decisions' based on the whole of the information that they are able to find, not just based on my opinions because there is usually very good input from a number of different people in these topics. There is also occasional wrong information that sometimes gets spread far and wide and for many years by hear-say.

Maybe synthetic oil is really not the right choice for you. I have no way of actually knowing what the right choice is for others and there have been some very good comments here from people who are not using synthetic oil.
 

Fixnstuff

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Alright, so I'm looking at the Motul 5W-40 synthetic oil now.
>snipped
o_O

Sorry I couldn't get back sooner!

I spent two hours a couple of nights ago researching and answering your question THEN my bowser went 'BLIP' and disappeared with no way to recover what I wrote.

I can't get back to this topic until LATE tonight of early morning hours to explain but IN SHORT:

It's an old American Company and I assume you are talking about the 8100 series 100% Synthetic
DON'T USE THAT OIL. That is an OLD label and even though some is still available to purchase it was discontinued by Motul. That oil was much more for CARS or/including very small diesel engines at best. Now ALL of their 8100 series oils/100% synthetic (a lot of them) ARE labelled FOR CARS.

They only have 2 oils for heavy duty and commercial diesel engines (which your engine is) and they are both 15W40 Mineral Oil based which is refined from crude oil. NOT 100%Synthetic. It's named TEKMA MAGA 15W40 and the newer one which has been out and listed at Amazon since June 1, 1016 (2 years) is called TEKMA MAGA X 15W40. It's not listed on their website which means they haven't updated their truck oil offering(s) for TWO YEARS. Their website is A REAL MESS to try to navigate. If you go their try to find PRODUCTS and go there first.

BUT to save you A LOT of time and frustration you need to find a completely DIFFERENT COMPANY.

I have to leave home for awhile and when I get back I'll try to help some more and give some new advice. including: You may not need a 100% Synthetic Oil at this first time around which opens a lot of possibilities. You might check Schaeffer Oil Company for their 'Synthetic' diesel truck motor oil. Excellent Company in business since 1939.

I don't remember if it's 100% Synthetic, but I called a dealer about 45-50 miles from here in TACOMA, Washington and they are an over the road Diesel Tractor Repair Shop, doing a LOT of oil changes for 18 wheeler tractor/trailer trucks and they only sell in bulk so I would have to bring my own container. I opted for a different brand but THAT order was botched so now I have to either re-order the same product or make another choice so I am going to look over it all AGAIN before I decide again.

I hope you are not in a big rush to make a decision. I'll get back to this as soon as I can because NOW, I too am in "search for a product to buy" mode and I AM in a rush to change the oil (to synthetic) and it's long overdue. So is my COOLANT. and I would like to do that complete flush and change to ELC tomorrow if the swelling has gone down enough in my right hand. It's not looking good right now (not good to type with it either so that may have to wait MORE days.

TTYL
 

CDX825

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I was running 15W40 rotella in my truck in the summer and T6 5W40 in the winter.

My experience was much better cold starts and oil pressure came up faster with the T6.
 

david85

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Well, I went with the Motul 5W-40 X-cess. So far the truck seems to like it. You can tell by the sound that it settles more quickly to a quieter idle on cold start. No funny noises and it holds speed nicely on the long hills in high gear. Unfortunately, I don't have a baseline for MPGs since putting the truck back together. I also have a set of old code BB injectors that I recently rebuilt with Chinese sourced nozzles. All pop tested to 1850 +/- 50PSI. Time will tell if those were worth the trouble but I wanted to be able to rebuild my own injectors, and no one seems willing to sell them domestically.

My reasoning on going with Motul was that it is indented for big displacement gas or diesel engines under the European standards. Yes, these are often car engines that have much higher horsepower per displacement than our old IDIs (engines that often require synthetic for warranty purposes). Sludge is also a big concern with newer engines, so detergent content should be adequate. Place of manufacture is Italy, so it should be true 100% synthetic, unlike the domestic "fully synthetic" products. At $43(CAD)/5L jug it is expensive though.

The only hiccup was I goofed and bought one jug of 0W-40 so I had to leave the truck draining for 24 hours before I could get back to finish the oil change. The advantage was a very clean oil change that stayed clear after the first few minutes of running. Time will tell how quickly it turns black, but I'm probably going to do the 24h drain from now on. I never thought about it before, but I suppose the oil cooler might have a chance to drain if the engine were left open this long?

I'm sure this discussion will continue to field some very lively results but for now, I'm on synthetic.
 

Hydro-idi

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When your oil turns black, that means it’s doing it’s job. Wouldn’t worry much about it. These aren’t formula 1 engines lol.
 

Thewespaul

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Well, I went with the Motul 5W-40 X-cess. So far the truck seems to like it. You can tell by the sound that it settles more quickly to a quieter idle on cold start. No funny noises and it holds speed nicely on the long hills in high gear. Unfortunately, I don't have a baseline for MPGs since putting the truck back together. I also have a set of old code BB injectors that I recently rebuilt with Chinese sourced nozzles. All pop tested to 1850 +/- 50PSI. Time will tell if those were worth the trouble but I wanted to be able to rebuild my own injectors, and no one seems willing to sell them domestically.

My reasoning on going with Motul was that it is indented for big displacement gas or diesel engines under the European standards. Yes, these are often car engines that have much higher horsepower per displacement than our old IDIs (engines that often require synthetic for warranty purposes). Sludge is also a big concern with newer engines, so detergent content should be adequate. Place of manufacture is Italy, so it should be true 100% synthetic, unlike the domestic "fully synthetic" products. At $43(CAD)/5L jug it is expensive though.

The only hiccup was I goofed and bought one jug of 0W-40 so I had to leave the truck draining for 24 hours before I could get back to finish the oil change. The advantage was a very clean oil change that stayed clear after the first few minutes of running. Time will tell how quickly it turns black, but I'm probably going to do the 24h drain from now on. I never thought about it before, but I suppose the oil cooler might have a chance to drain if the engine were left open this long?

I'm sure this discussion will continue to field some very lively results but for now, I'm on synthetic.
Let me know if you need any more nozzles, I’ll get you some American made goods.
 
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