If you dont want longevity all it takes is a head and rotor swap now if you want something thatll last more then 1k miles itll take a lot of internal custom R&D work (hint why the orginal hybrids from DPS were junk)
big hp idi
- Thread starter idibeast
- Start date
If you dont want longevity all it takes is a head and rotor swap now if you want something thatll last more then 1k miles itll take a lot of internal custom R&D work (hint why the orginal hybrids from DPS were junk)
88 Ford
Full Access Member
The Ds4 is totally different than a Db4. It is an electronically controlled pump. Also if you even try to make a hybrid pump, the cam pin from a Db2 is to small and will shear off. RacinNdrummin and NMB2 did the research to correct this issue and found the cam pin that they needed. Making a hybrid pump is no small task...
88 Ford
Full Access Member
You beat me to it. Lol.
rhkcommander
Full Access Member
180º out with a 6.2 pump or run two regular 6.9 pumps with a custom gear housing and the pumps sitting side by side: then they rotate the same as always and are gear driven still. like a Y.
Drew a crappy picture in paint really quickly to display the two possibilities. The first one would be using two normal DB2s, and a custom oil- fillport / gear housing for the IPs. We'd need a second ip, gear, and a custom housing made. The two pumps would be offset from the center, their gears would touch the other one like normal - not each other. therefore rotating the same. picture is of the gears, cant remember if i got them all lol but red=db2 gears.
Second picture is a top down, with a regular db2 in red in regular mounting position, and a green GM DB2 in green mounted opposite of the ford DB2. the original housing might be adaptible to this idea, it wouldn't be as pretty but would be easier/cheaper on the housing. fuel lines would be longer but either way we'd need custom ones... I'd prefer the double pumps in a Y config with gearing. Anothe random google image - the top two would be IP gears http://www.freshpepper.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/gears.png
Only time they wouldn't spin the same is if you stacked them one atop the other
Imagine dual mooses, 180-200cc with moose reliability. then a fat turbo or maybe twins
. Wouldn't worry about bottom half any, maybe a girdle just cause. Clean rebuild done well is going to cost about 2-3000$, either going for performance/reliability or bone stock. Ceramicoat the pistons, peen/cryo stuff, cam grind, studs, improved exhaust, intercooler either air-air or air-liquid, increase oil pressure, etc definitely not as much as some quote... I could see up to 10k on the whole drivetrain if going for perfection across the board. Haven't heard of very many instances of low end damage, except someone running insane amounts of methanol injection... We have a lot more to work with than the 6.2 crowd. Any inline 6 should be more stout, they have 6 pistons in a column whereas we have (double) 4... These engines are old school, pioneers of the diesel light duty trucks. We won't have all the bells and whistles but are blessed with a pretty well designed, durable design. There is always improvements over stock though.
Drew a crappy picture in paint really quickly to display the two possibilities. The first one would be using two normal DB2s, and a custom oil- fillport / gear housing for the IPs. We'd need a second ip, gear, and a custom housing made. The two pumps would be offset from the center, their gears would touch the other one like normal - not each other. therefore rotating the same. picture is of the gears, cant remember if i got them all lol but red=db2 gears.
Second picture is a top down, with a regular db2 in red in regular mounting position, and a green GM DB2 in green mounted opposite of the ford DB2. the original housing might be adaptible to this idea, it wouldn't be as pretty but would be easier/cheaper on the housing. fuel lines would be longer but either way we'd need custom ones... I'd prefer the double pumps in a Y config with gearing. Anothe random google image - the top two would be IP gears http://www.freshpepper.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/gears.png
Only time they wouldn't spin the same is if you stacked them one atop the other
Imagine dual mooses, 180-200cc with moose reliability. then a fat turbo or maybe twins
. Wouldn't worry about bottom half any, maybe a girdle just cause. Clean rebuild done well is going to cost about 2-3000$, either going for performance/reliability or bone stock. Ceramicoat the pistons, peen/cryo stuff, cam grind, studs, improved exhaust, intercooler either air-air or air-liquid, increase oil pressure, etc definitely not as much as some quote... I could see up to 10k on the whole drivetrain if going for perfection across the board. Haven't heard of very many instances of low end damage, except someone running insane amounts of methanol injection... We have a lot more to work with than the 6.2 crowd. Any inline 6 should be more stout, they have 6 pistons in a column whereas we have (double) 4... These engines are old school, pioneers of the diesel light duty trucks. We won't have all the bells and whistles but are blessed with a pretty well designed, durable design. There is always improvements over stock though.Attachments
Last edited:
You must be registered for see images attach
You must be registered for see images attach
http://youtu.be/FwFWNReCmck
I thought it was interesting. The GM guys have been talking about it since atleast 06 from what I can tell. The tractor is some where like the Netherlands or some thing. It appears that they ran the fuel lines to a T then out to the injectors and a guy on a gm forum says he's the one who supplied the belt set up. There's also a twin pump cummins out there too, in it's case on each injector appears to have two lines. I couldn't tell how both pumps where driven. It did seem like there was a gear whine but couldn't say for sure, could be the ringing in my ears...Think it is also in Canada some where, runs 9's in the the quarter.
I'm a big fan of the dual pump setup. Soooo much more economical than building a Super Moose no matter how its done. The problem with DB2/4 Hybrids are many. First off, understand that you absolutely CANNOT touch the fuel screw on a DB-4 rotor. There are 2 of them, and you will unbalance the pump in a big hurry if you mess with either one. They have to be specifically set up on the bench and then left alone. Then there is the issue of dirt. You have twice as much exposure to a heat soak problem with the DB4 rotor. Your fuel has to be super squeaky clean or it will take that $1500 out of your wallet time and time again. You can run TWO stock U-haul $300 pumps and get close to the same fuel out of the DB2/4 hybrid super pump at less than half the cost, and if one or both pumps go bad, you can replace them economically. A dual pump setup makes SO much more sense than doing ANYTHING else. Someone with a machine shop just needs to fab up a kit and they would sell dozens of them. Lastly, everybody talks about inline pumps like they are the bees knees. Inline pumps are not that great. Rotary pumps are cool because you are guaranteed that each cylinder will get EXACTLY the same amount of fuel. This results in an extremely smooth running engine. Not true with an inline. Also Bosch P pumps are thin at the webs. They can and do crack. That's an expensive oops when it happens. The only advantage to an inline pump is longevity, and that's if its a Cat pump or some other overbuilt model. This is why International puts an Amabac 100 rotary pump on some DT-466's. And you can get just as much or more fuel out of one of those for less money than an inline. Too bad they don't come in an 8 cylinder flavor.
88 Ford
Full Access Member
Thanks for the pics and video. Another thing with the fuel lines, I would think making a Y out of the two fuel lines would for better than the T that is on that one. Still cool though. I still can't wait to get a Db4 when I get the $$$.
88 Ford
Full Access Member
The thing about two pumps though is setting it up. And then there is the factor of them having possibly having different wear rates and that can affect the fuel rate and timing correct? I think it would be a pretty hard setup to tune and keep tuned over time.
tanman_2006
Full Access Member
I'd love to see my 350 whp Dmax get over 12mpg with a light load too. I run a edge on towing at all times, tranny slips any higher.
Devon Harley
Full Access Member
Nmb2 gets 17 everyday to 15 driving hard an he does as his videos show it. Also got around mid 13's to 14 towing his truggy not (buggy). Your 460 getting 6 is totally up to you an what you like. Diesels have been getting better than 6 towing 20k since the 7.3 powerstroke. On average a diesels cc 4x4 drw get worst of mid 9's lifted towing heavy. Any less an your trucks not running right. I average 16 an have seen 19.7 before its how you drive head wind hills it's always somthin. These diesels are not like a gasser it doesn't go from 200hp an 18mpg to 500hp an 6 won't ever happen.
rhkcommander
Full Access Member
Tuning and such shouldnt be that much harder, clamp on near each pump might be more accurate than where they Y together. Then time each closely. Not sure if there is a check valve that could take those pressures, but one in each line could help if they didnt blast off close enough in time.
Your foot controls mpg on these, if you floor it with stock ip then hot pump mpg will suffer. If you drive like you used to, probably not. Higher fuel rate if you use less pedal its like driving the same ole thing. If you drive like you stole it then of course your mpg will go to crap
Your foot controls mpg on these, if you floor it with stock ip then hot pump mpg will suffer. If you drive like you used to, probably not. Higher fuel rate if you use less pedal its like driving the same ole thing. If you drive like you stole it then of course your mpg will go to crap
tanman_2006
Full Access Member
If you don't get below 9mpg towing, you aren't pulling heavy enough. Jmo. I gross 34k 3 days a week during spring, summer and parts of fall and 9mpg sounds like good mpg to me. I am set up to pull 60mph with temps in check loaded that way but it seems the tranny starts slipping after a few yrs of that abuse.
why would you run the pumps, twins, 180° from each other? i would think you want them to fire an injector at the same exact time instead of the injector firing two different times on a compleet engine cycle or rpm? the idea is to get more fuel in the cylinder at once, and not to fire the injector let say like on the exhaust stroke. that would be a waste of fuel, and could damage many things, correct?
i think NMB2 covered this during his build. that the inline pumps will only deliver max fuel at a certain rpm, instead like our pums have an advance, which continously increases fuel throughout the entire rpm range. if there is someon out there that knows more, please enlitten me.
as far as timing goes i would do one pump at a time, obviously, and get the first one as close to 8°. then i would run the second at about 6° to increase for longer fueling rate/time. i think will give the best results as far from what we know about timing to much advance or retarted. this will ensure a long, high, and compleet burn. i dont know if this sounds like it would work with my first staement, but i hope you guys understand what i mean.
any thoughts?
i think NMB2 covered this during his build. that the inline pumps will only deliver max fuel at a certain rpm, instead like our pums have an advance, which continously increases fuel throughout the entire rpm range. if there is someon out there that knows more, please enlitten me.
as far as timing goes i would do one pump at a time, obviously, and get the first one as close to 8°. then i would run the second at about 6° to increase for longer fueling rate/time. i think will give the best results as far from what we know about timing to much advance or retarted. this will ensure a long, high, and compleet burn. i dont know if this sounds like it would work with my first staement, but i hope you guys understand what i mean.
any thoughts?
FordGuy100
Registered User
180* off in pump location wont matter, because you can just rotate the pump so that they are effectively timed the same.
