A little noob to noob advice on starting

[8973]

Learned a little nugget of wisdom on my own and thought I'd give a little back. I'm sure this is old hat to most of you, but I missed it.

So I've had my truck about 5 years now, and have gone through most of the common issues- batteries, cables, glow plugs, return lines, etc. I've also gone through 3 or 4 starters. Through all this I've noticed how crucial crank speed is to happy starting.

Recently I had a starter go up in smoke thanks to a stuck solenoid, tools locked in the garage, and not enough coffee that morning. When I replaced the starter I had great crank speed, but not long after it slowed. A lot. Checked batteries, cables, blah blah blah before I narrowed it down to a defective starter. Yay Napa.

Well, I do some research to find a better starter, and learned that the gear reduction starters and straight drive starters are directly interchangeable. My truck came with a straight starter, so I replaced it with the same every time. Until now. Holy crap does my truck start great now. 29* the other morning, no plug, fired quick as ever.
So if you have a grumpy starting truck, or need a starter, definitely get a gear reduction unit if you don't already have one. One of the best repairs I've ever done.

**Cliff Notes**
Gear reduction starters rock. Bolt in swap from straight drive. Don't be dumb like me and replace a straight drive unit, ever.

 

[icanfixall]

This advise is so very true. Heres the reasons. A diesel starts by compressing the air in the cylinders. All the air is pushed into a small area and it gets very hot. Diesel fuel requires around 940 degrees to lite off so. The faster you can compress the air the hotter it will get. Now think about trying to start with the batteries going down..... You hear the starter slowing down but you keep cranking in the hopes that it will fire off. Now you know thats just not going to happen. You hold the key in the start position till the engine quits turning. Great... Now what.. Well you just really overheated the starter because you just wouldn't let go of the key. Also you have nearly burned up the starter. As cranking speed drops the voltage is going down and the amps go up. High amp draw burns up the starter.. Sometimes this is called "letting the smoke out of the starter"... Now thats really funny because you will never actually find the smoke container that has all this smoke stored in it either... The stroke on these engines be it a 6.9 or 7.3 are all the same at around 4.110. All that volume is crushed up into an area just about 42 thousands between the head and the piston. No wonder these engines can't handle fluids in this area...

 

['94IDITurbo7.3]

i love the cliff notes at the bottom and your sig.

 

[typ4]

All you had to do was ask.

 

[8973]

i love the cliff notes at the bottom and your sig.

Shanks. I like yer engine.

All you had to do was ask.

I'm more of a searcher than an asker, and this totally eluded me. I didn't even know there was a choice. I ordered starters, they sent starters, I replaced starters, all straight jobbies. Who knew?

 

[dagreendeville]

i have a offset gear reduction starter from autozone and its a big piece of poo..... did you get yours from napa?

 

[8973]

Yup - Napa reman (std; P# 244-0208). They offer a few different remans and a new unit (P# 4N0208). The standard was the only one available locally. I needed it next day.

The only reason I got it from Napa was they've been all been warantied. I bought my first there 4-5 years back, and my store owner offered to warranty a gear reduction unit to replace the defective straight unit.

If I were buying again, I'd look at a Delco new part. I spoke with a local rebuilder, and he likes 'em. A lot of reman stuff is junk these days. I run a shop and see lots of crap parts. If mine fails out of warranty, I'm going to a rebuilder and have a real starter made.

 

[Black dawg]

Yup - Napa reman (std; P# 244-0208). They offer a few different remans and a new unit (P# 4N0208). The standard was the only one available locally. I needed it next day.

The only reason I got it from Napa was they've been all been warantied. I bought my first there 4-5 years back, and my store owner offered to warranty a gear reduction unit to replace the defective straight unit.

If I were buying again, I'd look at a Delco new part. I spoke with a local rebuilder, and he likes 'em. A lot of reman stuff is junk these days. I run a shop and see lots of crap parts. If mine fails out of warranty, I'm going to a rebuilder and have a real starter made.

the 244-208 and 4no208 are the nippondenso style.

 

[Black dawg]

Yup - Napa reman (std; P# 244-0208). They offer a few different remans and a new unit (P# 4N0208). The standard was the only one available locally. I needed it next day.

The only reason I got it from Napa was they've been all been warantied. I bought my first there 4-5 years back, and my store owner offered to warranty a gear reduction unit to replace the defective straight unit.

If I were buying again, I'd look at a Delco new part. I spoke with a local rebuilder, and he likes 'em. A lot of reman stuff is junk these days. I run a shop and see lots of crap parts. If mine fails out of warranty, I'm going to a rebuilder and have a real starter made.

the 244-208 and 4no208 are the nippondenso style. Was your original the one that looked like a big chevy starter? I would like to know how the nippondenso stack up against the original mitsu style (3.6kw) osgr.

 

[Agnem]

An easy conclusion to reach based on your experience, BUT in my opionion, the gear reduction starters are just drawing less amps which gives the illusion that they are better, when in fact it is your batteries and cables that are preventing a properly performing direct drive starter from working. The Scarlett Moose came with a gear reduction brand X starter, and when I replaced it, it was with a Motorcraft direct drive unit. I cleaned up the cables, battery and connector mess, and it spins that motor just as good as the original 28 year old direct drive Delco starter that the Moose Truck came with.

 

[Black dawg]

I would really like to see all the available starters tested head to head.

Testing cranking speed and amp draw. In my experience the direct drive starter does spin the motor faster, but does require more amperage.

 

[8973]

the 244-208 and 4no208 are the nippondenso style. Was your original the one that looked like a big chevy starter? I would like to know how the nippondenso stack up against the original mitsu style (3.6kw) osgr.

Yes. Per Napa:

Starter Type : Nippondenso Offset Gear Reduction

Huh. I just noticed Napa calls the Mitsubishi type osgr as well. I'm guessing that is wrong, since even in their picture they show what I call a straight drive unit.

Here is the type I always ran; the type I consider straight drive. (If this is a gear reduction type, somebody please let me know.)

This is my old crappy starter (Mitsubishi)-

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This is my new bad a$$ starter (Nippondenso)-

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To answer your question, teh Nippondenso > Mitsubishi.
Seems to crank considerably faster, leading to quicker starts.
No word yet on reliability, but my gut feeling is it will be better. I think the gear reduction design alone will help, but if nothing else, quicker starts means fewer cranks, means longer life.
As an added bonus; it's easier to get to that top bolt, too, so less of a PITA to install.

 

[8973]

An easy conclusion to reach based on your experience, BUT in my opionion, the gear reduction starters are just drawing less amps which gives the illusion that they are better, when in fact it is your batteries and cables that are preventing a properly performing direct drive starter from working. The Scarlett Moose came with a gear reduction brand X starter, and when I replaced it, it was with a Motorcraft direct drive unit. I cleaned up the cables, battery and connector mess, and it spins that motor just as good as the original 28 year old direct drive Delco starter that the Moose Truck came with.

I guess there will always be variables, and you're right- I've been starting my truck for years with a direct drive starter. You have worlds more experience than I, and I respect your opinion highly.
In my case I tested voltage drop on all my cables. I cleaned up every cable end (disco'ed, wire wheeled, terminal cleaner). I'm running < 1 year old Interstate MTP-65s. My wires are all 2/0 gauge. I've always tried to maintain a good electrical system, and I'm pretty sure everything is up to *****.

All I can say is that my truck starts better now than it ever has. Maybe I've had a run of crappy reman starters. I have no trouble believing that. But I really like this one. And regardless, isn't less amperage draw a good thing?

 

[badaceds650]

If you want even faster starting move driver side battery to the pass side and run dual power cable to the starter I did both of those at separate times and each mod was noticeable by the ear

 

[Black dawg]

8973, do you know the part# of your original starter? I have been wanting to try the nippondenso style, but wont if it isnt going to crank any faster than what I have now (BSH SR587X) 3.6kw. The regular napa remans are only 2kw, and crank pretty slow. The original mitsu from ford was 3.6kw.