240d questions

flexneck

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reliability goes waaayyyy down after the W116,W126,W123 bodies. everything after that has electronic engine control, and aluminum heads/blocks.
this i know from my buddy who cant stop buying late 80ies 190Ds and 300Ds, and they are nice rides, lots of balls, drive like gassers, but always have at least one red light on the dash on...
 

The Warden

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Good info, Warden. One clarification thought - the 190d doesn't have the 5-speed (unfortunately) it has th automatic. Still sound like a good deal?
Oops, I guess I misread it...sorry about that... even with an auto, $2200's a good price if the car's in good shape. The 602 isn't as common as the 601 is, and it seems like even 190D 2.2's in decent shape typically sell above $3K.

Also, FWIW, to the best of my knowledge, the early aluminum-head M-B's didn't have electronic engine controls...I don't believe that started until '95 with the E300 OM606. The CARS started getting more electronics in '86 (ABS and airbags to begin with), but nothing directly related to the engine on the diesels...

BTW, in response to the reliability question, I've come to find that W116 parts typically cost 2 or 3 times the price for a similar part for a W123 (or even a W126) chassis. I'm honestly not sure why, but while the W116 is a beautiful car, I'd be very wary about owning one in the future. OTOH, I'd recommend a W123 or a W126 to anyone ;Sweet
 
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towcat

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What do you guys think of an 87 190d with the 2.5 non-turbo and an automatic for $2200?

I've been emailing with the owner and trying to arrange a test drive - probably later this week....
$2200 is not a bad price at all
I sold mime for $1500 As-is to Gene. It had plenty of interior issues and a balky climate control. Even then, he didn't haggle with me(for once) and was back from the bank with cash in hand within 15 minutes of the price quote. Guess he didn't want that number to run from himcookoo
Unfortunately, his dad totaled it about a year ago-cuss
 

Cheaper Jeeper

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$2200 is not a bad price at all
I sold mime for $1500 As-is to Gene. It had plenty of interior issues and a balky climate control. Even then, he didn't haggle with me(for once) and was back from the bank with cash in hand within 15 minutes of the price quote. Guess he didn't want that number to run from himcookoo
Unfortunately, his dad totaled it about a year ago-cuss

Kinda' what I thought. Apparently its a pretty good price for this area - 'cause when I called the guy back today he said it sold the day after he listed it!
 

tgatch

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I've now had my 82 300D for ALMOST a year. It's coming up on 240K. I'm averaging 24 mpg with a mix of 50/50 city/highway driving.

Yes you can take a 240D manual and mate it to a 300D without major issues.

A 240D will get similar mileage as a 300D. The 190 will get better mileage than either. A nice read on the W123 Mileage from REAL people with REAL numbers is found here

Be aware, they are known as European Road Oilers for a reason. Not too bad, just put down a catch in your driveway. Suspension parts aren't too expensive, and they really aren't that difficult to work on. If you work on the front end; don't be cheap, have Mercedes do the alignment. I have been told by several sources about the only place that can align a W123 properly is Mercedes.
 

Cheaper Jeeper

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Thanks for that link tgatch - looks like the bulk of 240d owners get in the 28-34 mpg range, and an equal percentage of the 300d turbo folks are getting in the 24-28 mpg range. The 300d non-turbo crowd seems to be about evenly split between the 20-24 and 24-28 ranges.

So for fuel mileage, looks like they pretty much rank from best to worst as 240d, 300dt, and 300d. With diesel about $0.50 more than gasoline, nearing $4 a gallon, and my Jetta getting 24-25 in commuting traffic and just under 31 in straight highway driving on unleaded, I figure I need a diesel to get at least 28 mpg in mixed driving just to break even.

That rules out the 300d, puts the 300dt right on the line, and the 240d as the logical choice if fuel mileage is the primary consideration.

Looks like I need to be focusing my efforts on finding a diesel Jetta instead of an MB...
 

tgatch

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A MB 190DT would get you that kind of mileage. A little more spendy though
 

tgatch

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you are about the only one I know of getting that kind of mileage.

Are you sure your odometer is accurate???

30 MPG would be about 510 to 570 miles depending on what your gallons are at fill up.

36 MPG would be about 612 to 684 miles depending on what your gallons are at fill up.

Low number is a 17 gallon fill up and a high number is a 19 gallon at fill up.

Would like to know what you are doing to get half again as many miles per fill up as every other 300D owner I know.
 

BENZIN

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KaN air filter/air tube to turbo 2 3\4 to 3 inch exhaust pipe to bumper with alda removed all my linkenge adjusted . last time I measusured I had 5 gals and went 160 miles mostly stop and go though :dunno
 

Cheaper Jeeper

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Well, I drove a co-worker's 82 300DT today. Not bad at all. Plenty of get up N go, nice ride, very solid feeling car.

I dunno, tgatch, but my co-worker (a fellow engineer no less) swears she gets 30+/- mpg in mixed driving around town and as high as 38 mpg on long highway trips from Seattle to Bozeman to visit her family. She says her old Benz gets as good of mileage as the Geo Metro she used to have.....

So if the 4-speed manual tranny out of a 240D will bolt up to the 3.0 liter in a 300D, I guess the only real issues with the swap would be the pedals and the driveshaft. Does anyone know if the 300D automatics have a removeable pedal assembly that could be taken out and replaced with a twin pedal assembly from a 240D stick shift? I know that the 300D was available with a manual tranny in Europe, and of course the 240D was available with both types of trannys.

So I would expect the pedal(s) and mounting bracket to be a bolt-in piece for both models for manufacturing simplicity. If that is true, then the big question is: are they the same piece for both cars so they will interchange. Aslo, what type of clutch actuating mechanism is in the 240D - hydraulic, cable, or mechanical linkage? Anbody know for sure?

I've never seen the two side by side, so I'm not sue, do the early 80's 240D and 300D have the same body, or is the 240D actually a smaller version? Another thing I was wondering about is the possiblity of installing a 3.0 liter from a 300D in to a 240D body that already has the manual tranny installed. Is there room enough in the 240D engine bay for the 5 cylinder?

For my money the ultimate would be a 300CDT, with a manual tranny. Second best would be a stick shift 240D with a 3.0 liter turbo transplant.
 
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BENZIN

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240d and 300d are the same car just ordered different ,the auto to manual swap is a bolt in deal go to that site I posted about alot swap smart people about MB .
 

The Warden

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I dunno, tgatch, but my co-worker (a fellow engineer no less) swears she gets 30+/- mpg in mixed driving around town and as high as 38 mpg on long highway trips from Seattle to Bozeman to visit her family. She says her old Benz gets as good of mileage as the Geo Metro she used to have.....
Has she actually calculated the numbers? Is her odometer accurate? An inaccurate odometer is not an uncommon problem with these cars, although they tend to read too low (or fail completely, when a plastic gear breaks) as opposed to too high....wouldn't surprise me, though. I can't recall ever hearing of anyone who's EVER gotten over 30 mpg out of a 123. Is she topping off the tank every time?

So if the 4-speed manual tranny out of a 240D will bolt up to the 3.0 liter in a 300D, I guess the only real issues with the swap would be the pedals and the driveshaft. Does anyone know if the 300D automatics have a removeable pedal assembly that could be taken out and replaced with a twin pedal assembly from a 240D stick shift? I know that the 300D was available with a manual tranny in Europe, and of course the 240D was available with both types of trannys.

So I would expect the pedal(s) and mounting bracket to be a bolt-in piece for both models for manufacturing simplicity. If that is true, then the big question is: are they the same piece for both cars so they will interchange. Aslo, what type of clutch actuating mechanism is in the 240D - hydraulic, cable, or mechanical linkage? Anbody know for sure?
The clutch actuating mechanism is hydraulic...IIRC, it taps into the brake master cylinder reservoir (not sure how) for a source of fluid. Regarding the pedals (as well as the gearshift lever, etc), it's all plug-and-play...you'll need to swap out the pedal assembly, but it's bolt-to-bolt; no fabrication needed.

I've never seen the two side by side, so I'm not sue, do the early 80's 240D and 300D have the same body, or is the 240D actually a smaller version? Another thing I was wondering about is the possiblity of installing a 3.0 liter from a 300D in to a 240D body that already has the manual tranny installed. Is there room enough in the 240D engine bay for the 5 cylinder?
A '77-'83 240D and a '77-'85 300D are an identical chassis...the only difference, besides engine/tranny, is interior appointments (automatic climate control, power windows, etc on a 300D). In fact, most people prefer to take a 240D and put a 5 cylinder engine into the car, because they prefer the more utilitarian 240D chassis (with manual climate control and manual windows, and sometimes a manual sunroof). If you do that, I'd recommend also swapping the differential (simple swap), because 300D's have a numerically lower gear ratio than 240D's...I don't remember the 240D's gear ratio (I think it's in the 3.73 range, but don't quote me on that), but '81-'84 300D's have a 3.07 rear end, and '85 300D's have a 2.88 rear end. IMHO a 617 turbo is happiest cruising between 2400 and 3000 RPM...with 2.88's and a slushbox, my old '85 300D was right at 3000 RPM at 70 mph. I got about 25 in mixed city driving, and could break the 30 barrier on the I-5 at 70 mph if I was careful.

BTW, this probably won't be a problem, but just in case...don't try to swap a '77 or later engine into a '76 or older car, or vice-versa. The base block is the same, but many of the external accessories are different...most notably the oil filter assembly. Might be possible to trade assemblies, but I'm not sure...and, by the time all was said and done, it'd probably be more trouble than it's worth. Also, if you really want an automatic climate control setup, I'd strongly recommend using an '81 or newer chassis. The '77-'80 ACC setup is very problematic, and VERY expensive to repair. The 240D's manual climate control is far more foolproof, but the '81-'85 setup's actually pretty good IMHO...

Hope this helps some :)
 

Cheaper Jeeper

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VERY helpful info, Warden - thanks! After posting my questions I did some more digging on the 'net and figured out that he 240 & 300 were the same chassis. Good to know that the pedals and stuff are a straight bolt-in deal.

So, now I'm looking for a combination of parts/cars that will enable me to put together what I want. Again, my ideal would be to buy a 300CD non-turbo in in driveable condition for a couple of grand, then accumulate the parts to put a turbo on it and a 4 speed behind it. I know you recommended getting one with a factory turbo, but the only one I've found in this area wa TWICE the price of the two non-turbos I've found. The next best option seems to be to go the engine swap route on a 240D with the 4-speed already in it.

After driving the 300DT yesterday, I can certainly see where either the 300D non-turbo, or the 240D either one would seem underpowered.

Last question for the gurus here. Since the 3.0 liter is essentially a 2.4 liter with one more cylinder added on, would it be possible to take a 3.0 turbo exhaust manifold, cut either the front or back exhaust port off of it, weld a cap over the cut end, and then install it on a 2.4 liter? Are the exhaust manifold ports spaced the same with the same flange orientations for it to be able to fit if you lopped one off of either end? Or is that even a question anyone has considered?

I read earlier in the thread where you said the non-turbos don't have the oil squirters, but if you install a good pyrometer and keep a close eye in it, is that really all that big of a deal? How hard would it be to install the squirters? I've seen pictures of a non-turbo 3.0 liter block with the oil pan off, and it had block off plates where the squirters go, so couldn't you easily install them? Would the 2.4 block have the block off plates too, or did they completely leave the squirter mounts out of the design?
 
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BENZIN

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If you go with a NA motor car and do a turbo swap your engine will not last it would be better to find a na car and do a turbo engine swap from a donor car .
 

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