head cylinder rebuild questions

PwrSmoke

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Exhaust valves are way too close. They need to be sunk to 0.051-063" to make spec. They are .028-.036" now. Did they put in new exhaust seats? Anyway, the deeper the valves are sunk, the less chance you'll have valve to piston clearance issues. I'd think you are practically guaranteed to have them now with 0.015" off the head and that little recession. Intakes are sunk nice and deep.
 

IDIoit

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no new seats, they were good, but I did have them do a 3 angle valve job.
 

icanfixall

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These dimensions are directly from my Navistar shop service manual.
Intake valve recession........0.042 to 0.064
Exhaust valve recession is...0.051 to 0.063
Precup recession or protrusion is -0.0025 to +0.0025
Head thickness is 4.795 to 4.805
Surface flatness 0.003 in a 6 in distance or 0.006 overall.


Time to make it correct or risk a crash and bent valves.
Remember these heads are FLAT. So the only thing keeping the valves from hitting the heads is the thickness of the head gasket and the recession. I understand a miss of 1 thousands is as good as a mile but why take that chance of contact.
 

IDIoit

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i expressed these issues to my machinist today.
he has always done an outstanding job on everything ive done.

he told me it was fine.
i do not mean to diminish the wise words spoken here,
but i am confident that if he says ill have no issues.
i do trust him, he's built the Sd heads and every other set i have done...

he does back his work.
out of 30 jobs he's done for me, only had 1 issues but it was a custom build. and he made it right.

i am in a quandry.
i have done my homework.
you guys have told me your piece.(which i respect greatly)
my machinist has told me his piece.

i think the best course of action is to install the heads with shims simulating a crushed headgasket,
using clay on the pistons, put everything together out of the truck, and rotate it and measure the clearance.

to me this seems like the only way to tell 100%

am i thinking correct?
 

riotwarrior

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Do not RUN THOSE HEADS as they are....insist he redo the heads or warn him his rebuild cost could be an entire engine...if you sma k valves to pistons u will likely bend them and could break a head and cause catastrophic results aka bending rods cracking block....

Please do not gamble on his word...
 

PwrSmoke

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i expressed these issues to my machinist today.
he has always done an outstanding job on everything ive done.

he told me it was fine.
i do not mean to diminish the wise words spoken here,
but i am confident that if he says ill have no issues.
i do trust him, he's built the Sd heads and every other set i have done...

he does back his work.
out of 30 jobs he's done for me, only had 1 issues but it was a custom build. and he made it right.

i am in a quandry.
i have done my homework.
you guys have told me your piece.(which i respect greatly)
my machinist has told me his piece.

i think the best course of action is to install the heads with shims simulating a crushed headgasket,
using clay on the pistons, put everything together out of the truck, and rotate it and measure the clearance.

to me this seems like the only way to tell 100%

am i thinking correct?

It's a big gamble.

Specs are specs and they exist for a good reason. The machinists I know don't so blatantly ignore them. Exceptions are when they are done for a reason to achieve some goal. I don't see a goal here, except avoiding having to redo some work. If there is one, have him explain it and I'd like to learn what advantage there is in cutting the recession margin by half. The guys that ignore specs are also usually VERY experienced with a particular engine and know all the ins and outs... usually learning from having broken stuff. If that's the case, pick the guys brain and teach us. But I gotta say, my BS detector is ringing stridently here.

I did what you are proposing re the clay and such. Count on an eight hour day by the time you are done doing two cylinders on both heads. As you do it, remember you are doing it ONLY because the machinist refuses to set the recession properly. If the recession is set properly, the clearance is more or less a given and the check is unnecessary.

The answer is simple. Get him to agree, in writing, to cover all costs if this goes wrong. Labor, parts, everything. If he does, that will indicate his level of confidence. Or vice versa. Normally, machinists will only cover the costs of redoing what they did. You eat the time to R&R the heads and the parts cost involved in that. If this goes wrong, you have this variance from specs documented, so at least you can get your heads fixed, or your money back for the head work but there's a lot more to this potentially and even if he covers it all, it's going to be a PITA. All because he won't set the recession properly!

Part of me wants you to try it and see what the tolerances are for all of this but I'm really getting bad vibes and don't want you making tracks to the pharmacy for Preparation-H to assuage the PITA.
 

typ4

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Someone may have changed seats previously, another thing I thought of is a lot of valve makers make the exhausts with a thicker margin to compensate for sunken seats.
Yours are way to close, if you add the 15 off the head they are near spec . I would grind the new valves to give 10 and sink the seats more.
You dont want to do this twice.
 

IDIoit

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It's a big gamble.

Specs are specs and they exist for a good reason. The machinists I know don't so blatantly ignore them. Exceptions are when they are done for a reason to achieve some goal. I don't see a goal here, except avoiding having to redo some work. If there is one, have him explain it and I'd like to learn what advantage there is in cutting the recession margin by half. The guys that ignore specs are also usually VERY experienced with a particular engine and know all the ins and outs... usually learning from having broken stuff. If that's the case, pick the guys brain and teach us. But I gotta say, my BS detector is ringing stridently here.

I did what you are proposing re the clay and such. Count on an eight hour day by the time you are done doing two cylinders on both heads. As you do it, remember you are doing it ONLY because the machinist refuses to set the recession properly. If the recession is set properly, the clearance is more or less a given and the check is unnecessary.

The answer is simple. Get him to agree, in writing, to cover all costs if this goes wrong. Labor, parts, everything. If he does, that will indicate his level of confidence. Or vice versa. Normally, machinists will only cover the costs of redoing what they did. You eat the time to R&R the heads and the parts cost involved in that. If this goes wrong, you have this variance from specs documented, so at least you can get your heads fixed, or your money back for the head work but there's a lot more to this potentially and even if he covers it all, it's going to be a PITA. All because he won't set the recession properly!

Part of me wants you to try it and see what the tolerances are for all of this but I'm really getting bad vibes and don't want you making tracks to the pharmacy for Preparation-H to assuage the PITA.

LOL

i dont want you guys thinking that im not taking your word.
i was only charged 300 for the work. i do have some pull with the guy, because his 1958 chevy is sitting at my house
for some wiring i need to finish.

i dont need to get anything in writing. he will fix it without issue.

in regards to the prep H, years ago i decided that i would never get pissed about cars again, it takes all the fun out of it!
even if a engine blows up, oah well, it happens. this is why i run most of my vehicles beyond the limit.

i do want this engine correct. and i do agree that the valves should be kissed to avoid a piston to valve party.
on the other hand,
im a hard headed individual.
sometimes its hard for things to sink in.
spending a day and slapping the heads on using the clay method isnt a waste of time IMO.
not only will it give me physical evidence that things are incorrect,
but it will teach me a thing or two about these engines.

i know for a fact that this site is the best on the internet.
and you guys have the experience required to tell me this is incorrect.
but i would like to see how close it really does get.

thank you for all your help!
i will post my results when i do it.
most likely gonna be a few weeks before i get to it.
 

laserjock

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Aren't you about due for a couple interuptions just any day? :rotflmao

Trust me, weeks quickly turn into months when that happens. Ask me how I know.
 

IDIoit

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Someone may have changed seats previously, another thing I thought of is a lot of valve makers make the exhausts with a thicker margin to compensate for sunken seats.
Yours are way to close, if you add the 15 off the head they are near spec . I would grind the new valves to give 10 and sink the seats more.
You dont want to do this twice.

the valves you sent me did look alot beefier than the ones i discarded.
very happy with them and dont want to purchase them again, for this engine anyways.

this is my first IDI major engine work.
ive never tore into one.
after i get this one done, i can step up my game!
seeing that the valve clearance , and the recession in the pistons are our combustion chamber,
it would be interesting to know how close they can get without touching.
may even play with the compression on my next hotrod build!

a couple of things i do need to research...

crushed headgasket clearance
valve expansion when @ 1200 degrees
and piston swell
 

IDIoit

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Aren't you about due for a couple interuptions just any day? :rotflmao

Trust me, weeks quickly turn into months when that happens. Ask me how I know.

MONDAY!!!!
i cannot f'n wait!!!!!
i will be still doing my work, along with wrenching.
jsut on a smaller scale.

i dont see kids as a reason to hold me back, only as a reason to move forward!
 

PwrSmoke

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LOL


im a hard headed individual.
sometimes its hard for things to sink in.
spending a day and slapping the heads on using the clay method isnt a waste of time IMO.
not only will it give me physical evidence that things are incorrect,
but it will teach me a thing or two about these engines.

Which is exactly why I did mine (though my recession was in well in spec, which may make me even more hard headed or **** than you ( : < o) BUT remember that you have to use test valve springs. The stock springs will compress the lifters and invalidate the check). With the engine running, oil pressure pumps up the lifters, which increases lift. I had test springs laying around from when I was hotrodding gassers (never get rid of any tool away!). You want to simulate about 0.060" lifter preload. I always wanted to check and see how much preload was normal for an IDI but never did. 0.060" is the generic average for hydraulic lifters. The test springs will simulate a fully pumped up lifter (no preload) and that's your worst case scenario in this situation. If you have clearance at that, you are free-n-clear!. If they do hit you might be able to modify a use lifter to simulate 0.060" preload, OR use adjustable pushrods to dial in 0.060" simulated preload with the test springs with no preload on the lifters. That's a little risky because there are rare circumstances where lifters pump up more. Cold, thick oil, high revs, stuck reilef in the pump, etc.
 

PwrSmoke

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I measured crushed head gasket clearance on my old gasket to do my setup. It was 0.064" on a Fel-Pro, which was right where the AERA specs it generically for the IDI engine. I found machined washers at that spec.
 

IDIoit

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which brings me to my next question,

i wont be using them on this engine, but have you ever used solid roller lifters in a diesel?
my rockers are adjustable, so simulating the preload will be quite easy.
maybe even modifying a old lifter i have to give me a fully pumped up condition.
 

typ4

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It wont hurt anything to face the extra off the valves, just hate to waste good metal.lol
 

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