TECH 101 engine chuff/ valve breaks POST MORTEM

riotwarrior

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Posts
14,778
Reaction score
482
Location
Cawston BC. Canada
Guys,

Here is the video POST MORTEM

Clearly the guide wear and lack of contact of valve to head caused valve to wear out, get hot, crack and chuff, this then began the process of catastrophic failure which lead to the valve breaking off 1/3.

Then that smacks piston and so on.

Bottom line, watch the video for clear and concise info.

http://youtu.be/B9Ui7Fp8QYw

Thats about all I can say right now, I've got to pull batteries out of my white rhino, and get them in Roses Black F150.

Thanks for watching

Al
 

rlb245

Full Access Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2013
Posts
155
Reaction score
2
Location
Cody Wyoming
That was a great synopsis Al. I love technology today. It's such a great tool to educate and inform.
 

riotwarrior

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Posts
14,778
Reaction score
482
Location
Cawston BC. Canada
That was a great synopsis Al. I love technology today. It's such a great tool to educate and inform.
Thanks, any questions I will address as they come as best as I can.

On a side note LMAO I was just offered a valve guide knurling machine for 50 bucks...hmmm...kinda late and like beating a dead horse...but I may just bite on it. Then to get a valve lathe and seat grinding setup...now who was it that had that....Hmmm...Russ...Oh Russ!

Same fellow has a OBS truck with a alledged remaned 7.3 engine, not sure but could be...two new G31's truck sat over seven years, needs GP's for sure. Heard it run, cackles something SaWeeeet. Could be willing to swap for Superwifeys' 91 F150 SC with 5.8 E4OD. Hmm....hmmm...lets hope we can swap and I can get the truck for parts...Hell ya!
 

ZWilson07

Cowboy
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Posts
628
Reaction score
6
Location
West Point, Kentucky
So any idea yet of what caused the valve guide to wear out like that and cause the valve to not be able to seal?

I know you mentioned the crack, or what you think is a crack at this point, but how would that relate to causing the guide to wear out and become that loose?

Sorry im still learning so I apologize if I missed something that was already mentioned or coming off as a newb!
 

icanfixall

Official GMM hand model
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Posts
25,858
Reaction score
673
Location
West coast
:thumbsup:Al....:hail;Sweet What you described is what it looks like. I'm was going to think that head with the busted valve as oem and the other side had been replaced once. But maybe not...:dunno Any chance you can get the depths the valves are set into the heads as a benchmark for further ideas. Might be a one only failure too but wont know till the other valves come out. It looks like number 6 exhaust is leaking something black out the closed valve. Was the valve seal gone or have you gotten that figured out yet. What shape is the valve rotater in. It appears you have not removed it yet. If that froze up the valve will pound the seat in short order. Still some investigation to do.
 

riotwarrior

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Posts
14,778
Reaction score
482
Location
Cawston BC. Canada
So any idea yet of what caused the valve guide to wear out like that and cause the valve to not be able to seal?

I know you mentioned the crack, or what you think is a crack at this point, but how would that relate to causing the guide to wear out and become that loose?

Sorry im still learning so I apologize if I missed something that was already mentioned or coming off as a newb!

Zwilson, no worries you really don't need to apologize,for not knowing and being willing to learn from whats happened here.

We are all here with differing levels of knowledge and skill and can always learn more. Never ever be sorry or apologize for being willing to and wanting to learn.

Please ask away and I will answer any questions I can and so will other members here!

Guide wear is something that comes with either MILEAGE or with TIME/HOURS of engine operation, this truck was moderately low miles, when I got it 197000 miles original however one caveat, it was used as a service truck for a logging company and IMHO sat idling away for hours at a time in the bush.

This continuous idling will wear items out as well.

The thrust of the rocker against the valve induces a sideward thrust that wears out guides in time or miles as mentioned.

As hot exhaust gasses pass over an open valve that super heats the edge of the valve and when it closes it transfers heat to head. This is one of the reasons HI EGT can have a negative effect on these engines. IT can and IT WILL destroy pistons and valves in short order!

The crack came from heating and cooling and contacting the valve seat in an uneven manner causing hot and cool spots on the valve making it more susceptible to cracking or other damage.

As the guide it self wears and more exhaust passes up the stem, there is more and more soot causing the oil to become abrasive and wear the guide faster exacerbating, the pre-existing condition and making matters worse.

Had I been able to get a set of heads done valve grind and so forth in time I could have saved this engine, and it would have been a very good runner based on the compression values I achieved with my tests.

In essence the cracks came after the guide wore out not before the guide wore out.


:thumbsup:Al....:hail;Sweet What you described is what it looks like. I'm was going to think that head with the busted valve as oem and the other side had been replaced once. But maybe not...:dunno Any chance you can get the depths the valves are set into the heads as a benchmark for further ideas. Might be a one only failure too but wont know till the other valves come out. It looks like number 6 exhaust is leaking something black out the closed valve. Was the valve seal gone or have you gotten that figured out yet. What shape is the valve rotater in. It appears you have not removed it yet. If that froze up the valve will pound the seat in short order. Still some investigation to do.

Thanks Gary for that, I'm pretty certain I can get more info.

Gary you know I won't settle for less than full disclosure of all results, however I've got other things to do, I'll be pressure washing the head and inspecting it further...why handle a dirty filthy head right? Also once I've got that block pulled out I'll more carefully inspect it. I would like to salvage as many usable parts as I can from it, bearing caps, seal plates and so forth. I'll be doing a further post mortem on the block to inspect the crack as well.

Al findings will be recorded in this thread so ya'll gotta be patient with me.

I'm needing some time now as I may have a good running engine located and deal is at this time made for trade...just gotta get wife to say OK!

Thus if ya'll are patient you will have more info, the video was just the start of the post mortem but was needed for closure and so people who have CHUFFERS will take heed and NOT let their engines get too far along. I don't want to see anyone else go through this level of failure as I have!

Thanks for reading

Al
 

ZWilson07

Cowboy
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Posts
628
Reaction score
6
Location
West Point, Kentucky
Zwilson, no worries you really don't need to apologize,for not knowing and being willing to learn from whats happened here.

We are all here with differing levels of knowledge and skill and can always learn more. Never ever be sorry or apologize for being willing to and wanting to learn.

Please ask away and I will answer any questions I can and so will other members here!

Guide wear is something that comes with either MILEAGE or with TIME/HOURS of engine operation, this truck was moderately low miles, when I got it 197000 miles original however one caveat, it was used as a service truck for a logging company and IMHO sat idling away for hours at a time in the bush.

This continuous idling will wear items out as well.

The thrust of the rocker against the valve induces a sideward thrust that wears out guides in time or miles as mentioned.

As hot exhaust gasses pass over an open valve that super heats the edge of the valve and when it closes it transfers heat to head. This is one of the reasons HI EGT can have a negative effect on these engines. IT can and IT WILL destroy pistons and valves in short order!

The crack came from heating and cooling and contacting the valve seat in an uneven manner causing hot and cool spots on the valve making it more susceptible to cracking or other damage.

As the guide it self wears and more exhaust passes up the stem, there is more and more soot causing the oil to become abrasive and wear the guide faster exacerbating, the pre-existing condition and making matters worse.

Had I been able to get a set of heads done valve grind and so forth in time I could have saved this engine, and it would have been a very good runner based on the compression values I achieved with my tests.

In essence the cracks came after the guide wore out not before the guide wore out.

Al

Hmm, I wonder why that one decided to wear out when the others didn't seem to have a problem yet.

Just the luck of the draw sometimes?
 

riotwarrior

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Posts
14,778
Reaction score
482
Location
Cawston BC. Canada
Hmm, I wonder why that one decided to wear out when the others didn't seem to have a problem yet.

Just the luck of the draw sometimes?
No one has checked other valves for wear yet....right??? So we don't know if they are worn or not so don't make assumptions based on speculations or on the fact one is clearly MORE worn than the rest...remember I've ONLY removed one valve for inspection, MORE TO COME...
 

ZWilson07

Cowboy
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Posts
628
Reaction score
6
Location
West Point, Kentucky
No one has checked other valves for wear yet....right??? So we don't know if they are worn or not so don't make assumptions based on speculations or on the fact one is clearly MORE worn than the rest...remember I've ONLY removed one valve for inspection, MORE TO COME...

ahh classic example of assuming.

Look forward to the rest.
 

gdhillon

Full Access Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2010
Posts
1,193
Reaction score
0
Location
PG...Canada
Thats an intense disection there Al, maybe you should be a coroner? lol.....just think you could be the next star of CSI haha
 

icanfixall

Official GMM hand model
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Posts
25,858
Reaction score
673
Location
West coast
Al, I suspect that rod will be bent some because there is only around 42 thousands clearance between the piston and the head. Not much room for imbedding something into a piston being the softer material. Looks to me like the broken piece did shatter in several pieces by the piston appearance.
 

dgr

Full Access Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Posts
915
Reaction score
238
Location
sac town
Excellent video. Everyone should watch it. Thank you for showing the valve stem wobble. That amount of wobble sure makes it obvious.
 

ksingltn

Full Access Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2013
Posts
117
Reaction score
0
Location
Anniston, AL
I'm with the others, excellent video.

is there a technical definition for "chuffing"? That's a new term to me.


As an aside, I think the exact same thing happened to the engine in a parts truck I got a while back. I scrapped the head and didn't pull the valves out/check them for play, but your pics are like deja vu for me. I was told it could have been a glow plug tip that did it, but after seeing your pics it could have been the same problem. (posted these same pics a while back in another thread) This engine was run for a couple years like this too, by the PO
You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach
 

ksingltn

Full Access Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2013
Posts
117
Reaction score
0
Location
Anniston, AL
gotcha makes perfect sense. I've seen a couple that did that, mine thankfully does not. I had the valve covers off about 3 months ago and have put maybe 1k miles on it since then, and there was no soot buildup like Al's engine. Makes me feel a little better.
 
Top