supercharged 7.3?

Optikalillushun

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Apples to oranges here guys/ The BDS units are the old 6/71 blower style units that eat your hp up, the paxton units are little tiny hybrid belt driven turbo looking units. Shouldn't be much parasitic loss at all off one of those things, although might have to do some creative work with pulley sizing to get the thing spinning fast enough off one of these things to do any good . they're designed to build boost on a wound up gasser,and that's going to be spinning a few grand higher.


just use a really small pulley ;Sweet id like this over a turbo just because it seems to be a little easier but i dont think it'd build much boost, maybe 6 psi but it would be a consistant 6 psi so more lower end torque but it'll only see 6 psi at the top end as well (used 6 psi as a generic example).
 

FordGuy100

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EGT's will get out of hand. Think about it if you build it up to make say 9psi at 3500 rpm's, how much boost will it make at say 1500rpm's. If you put a bunch of fuel in, you wont have all that much boost to burn it/lower EGT's. It might be able to keep them under control up high, but down low EGT's will skyrocket as your WOT smoke pouring out, and only making 2psi of boost. Think about it, thats what makes a turbo more appealing. When EGT's get high, it helps spool the turbo to make boost.

Thats why Detroit diesels have a blower/turbo setup, the blower is bypassed at when the boost rolls in from the turbo.

Just my $.02
 

LCAM-01XA

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That's a very good point with the EGTs, hadn't thought of that! so You think I will be overfueling it down low? How do gassers deal with that issue, those with carbs and not fuel injection? I mean the only thing that determines how much gas to put down the engine is the throttle position, kinda like us, only with our engines tis the IP that distributes the fuel, and not the carb - still tho, no electronic on the fly adjustments of fuel mixture. So at like 1500 rpms i won't be making the 9psi of boost I will at 3500, but I won't be dumping anywhere near as much fuel in it either... what am I missing here, where's the fault in that logic?
 

RLDSL

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I don't think that you'd be able to mount a pulley directly onto the thing small enough to do any good.
You'd probably have to come off the crank with a pulley that diameter to a small diameter idler pulley that is sandwich mounted to another large diameter pulley running to the paxton. That ought to get the rpms up into the range it's designed for . You'd want to pretty much double engine speed to get it up into gasser range
 

sootman73

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also remember that you may overspeed the supercharger by such a change in pulley size. it will be spinning quite fast even at idle.
 

tonkadoctor

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Top fuel motors are big in displacement, and probably use huge like 12v71 blowers on them pushing like 40psi of boost or something emense.

Top fuel is a very regulated class

They are limited to 500 cubic inches, 2 valve per head, ohv pushrod design, 2 spark plugs per head, single cam, american made engines....... and much more.

They run a 14-71 type roots blower pushing 55 - 75 psi boost with around 6.5:1 compression ratio.

Fuel mix max is 90% nitromethane

:peelout :peelout
 

Cheaper Jeeper

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From what I understand the Paxtons are much like a turbo (both centrifugal air pumps) in that if at 1000 RPM they produce 2 PSI, and you triple the RPMs to 3000, the boost will more than triple to say 7 or 8 psi. In short, the boost relative to RPMs is non-linear. That is why you would need some kind of popoff or bleed valve - to keep it under control at higher RPMs

Even if that is not the case and you can assume a linear relationship between RPMs and boost pressure I still can't see where that would create an EGTs problem any worse than with a turbo. As I understand it high EGTs aren't caused by excessive air flow into the motor - that actually results in cooler exhaust gas. Where EGTs get out of control is when you have high boost numbers and lots of fuel to burn with all that air. So if you properly control the flow of fuel through the pump & injectors, high EGTs shouldn't be a problem. Where the trick and the balancing act comes in is getting the right combination of boost and fuel delivery to maximize power without exceeding the safe EGT limit.

With a Paxton type supercharger the parasitic losses aren't nearly as high as with a roots type. The rotating mass in a Paxton is comparable to what is in a turbo - a compressor wheel. With the roots you have a pair of big honkin' meshed rotors with about a thousand times more rotating mass than the compressor wheel of a Paxton AND a set of gears to sync them - and that is where your most of your big parasitic losses come from - spinning those big hunks of aluminum. The other cause of parasitic loss with the roots is that it is a positive displacement air pump - meaning it is going to continue to push the same amount of air every revolution regardless of backpressure, and trying to overcome that backpressure is another form of parasitic loss. The Paxton, like a turbo, is a centifugal type of air pump and when there is backpressure the compressor wheel essentially "freewheels" - meaning almost no parasitic loss due to backpressure.

The only advantage of the turbo over the Paxton is that the turbo gets some of the energy to spin the compressor from exhaust heat and the resulting expansion of the exhaust gasses. But it still isn't completely free, because even the best turbo creates some exhaust backpressure, and we all know that diesels run their best and most efficiently with no exhaust backpressure at all. So there is still some parasitic loss pushing the exhaust gas out past the restriction of the exhaust turbine. The Paxton gets all of the energy to spin it's compressor directly from engine rotation, but it creates no exhaust backpressure at all. So it has a little more parasitic loss than a turbo - but not a huge amount.

The G-lader supercharger that VW put on their G60 Corrados, and Passats in the early 90s is about the best modern example of a factory installed belt-driven non-positive displacement supercharger I can think of. In terms of design the G-lader isn't exactly like a Paxton, but functionally it performs pretty much the same. In a Corrado with a 1.8 liter 8 valve engine a G-lader will boost the HP nearly 50% (from around 105 to about 150), and the energy "cost" is just a couple of mpg compared to the same engine without the supercharger. In fact, the 8-valve 1.8 liter Corrado G60 gets about the same gas mileage as the 16-valve 2.0 liter in my Jetta GLI, but it makes 10-15 more ponies - even though it has 10% less displacement and half as many intake/exhaust valves. And the two cars are built on the same chassis and very comparable in terms of curb weight and aerodynamics (the Corrado is a little more aerodynamic, but not much).

Although the compressor RPMs relative to the engine RPMs will need to be much higher with the diesel than with a gasser, that shouldn't be a problem because the compressor would still reach those same high RPMs on a gasser - the engine would just be turning at higher RPMS too. Getting it set up right on the diesel would require calculating the RPMs and boost (PSI) of the compressor and the air flow (CFM) at the HP peak RPMs of the smaller displacement gasser, and then setting it up the pulley ratios to spin the compressor at a rate that will provide the same boost pressure with the larger CFM displacement of the diesel at the diesel's HP peak RPMs. Not an easy set of calculations to do with any real precision, but not too tough to calculate a reasonably close estimate. It doesn't have to be exactly perfect to work - just reasonably close.

I think a Paxton would be a very worthwhile experiment on one of these IDIs, and a pretty easy install too. Getting the pulley ratios just right might involve adding a second pulley to either the vacuum pump or alternator to use two belts and step it up in two stages, but that shouldn't be an insurmountable challenge. The air conditioner compressor mount would be the logical place to put it with a minimum amount of fab work, but if you HAVE to keep your precious AC, then you could still probably fab the brackets to mount it below the AC compressor or vacuum pump.
 
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seawalkersee

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Not entirely true. You are forgetting that some blowers are more efficient than others. My 2.3 Whipple is more efficient than my m90s. Now, just because the 2.3 can push tons more boost is not why it is more efficient. You also have to understand that boost is a measure of restriction. You can not just assume you can go with one power adder because it works on another engine. I could probably push an easy five to eight pounds on one of my small blocks, but I woud maybe be able to push five pounds for a short while on the IDI with the M90 before the inlet temps got too high. Not sure how that will effect the diesel but its bad for the gas engines. The way to get around the blower speed is with a jackshaft. you use a percentage off of the crank and it turns a different pully that turns the blower.

Chris
 

LCAM-01XA

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Man, why couldn't it be as easy as just adding a turbo... keep the comments coming guys, I ain't never done force induction before so all the info is real helpful :D
 

FordGuy100

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From what I understand the Paxtons are much like a turbo (both centrifugal air pumps) in that if at 1000 RPM they produce 2 PSI, and you triple the RPMs to 3000, the boost will more than triple to say 7 or 8 psi. In short, the boost relative to RPMs is non-linear. That is why you would need some kind of popoff or bleed valve - to keep it under control at higher RPMs

Even if that is not the case and you can assume a linear relationship between RPMs and boost pressure I still can't see where that would create an EGTs problem any worse than with a turbo. As I understand it high EGTs aren't caused by excessive air flow into the motor - that actually results in cooler exhaust gas. Where EGTs get out of control is when you have high boost numbers and lots of fuel to burn with all that air. So if you properly control the flow of fuel through the pump & injectors, high EGTs shouldn't be a problem. Where the trick and the balancing act comes in is getting the right combination of boost and fuel delivery to maximize power without exceeding the safe EGT limit.

With a Paxton type supercharger the parasitic losses aren't nearly as high as with a roots type. The rotating mass in a Paxton is comparable to what is in a turbo - a compressor wheel. With the roots you have a pair of big honkin' meshed rotors with about a thousand times more rotating mass than the compressor wheel of a Paxton AND a set of gears to sync them - and that is where your most of your big parasitic losses come from - spinning those big hunks of aluminum. The other cause of parasitic loss with the roots is that it is a positive displacement air pump - meaning it is going to continue to push the same amount of air every revolution regardless of backpressure, and trying to overcome that backpressure is another form of parasitic loss. The Paxton, like a turbo, is a centifugal type of air pump and when there is backpressure the compressor wheel essentially "freewheels" - meaning almost no parasitic loss due to backpressure.

The only advantage of the turbo over the Paxton is that the turbo gets some of the energy to spin the compressor from exhaust heat and the resulting expansion of the exhaust gasses. But it still isn't completely free, because even the best turbo creates some exhaust backpressure, and we all know that diesels run their best and most efficiently with no exhaust backpressure at all. So there is still some parasitic loss pushing the exhaust gas out past the restriction of the exhaust turbine. The Paxton gets all of the energy to spin it's compressor directly from engine rotation, but it creates no exhaust backpressure at all. So it has a little more parasitic loss than a turbo - but not a huge amount.

The G-lader supercharger that VW put on their G60 Corrados, and Passats in the early 90s is about the best modern example of a factory installed belt-driven non-positive displacement supercharger I can think of. In terms of design the G-lader isn't exactly like a Paxton, but functionally it performs pretty much the same. In a Corrado with a 1.8 liter 8 valve engine a G-lader will boost the HP nearly 50% (from around 105 to about 150), and the energy "cost" is just a couple of mpg compared to the same engine without the supercharger. In fact, the 8-valve 1.8 liter Corrado G60 gets about the same gas mileage as the 16-valve 2.0 liter in my Jetta GLI, but it makes 10-15 more ponies - even though it has 10% less displacement and half as many intake/exhaust valves. And the two cars are built on the same chassis and very comparable in terms of curb weight and aerodynamics (the Corrado is a little more aerodynamic, but not much).

Although the compressor RPMs relative to the engine RPMs will need to be much higher with the diesel than with a gasser, that shouldn't be a problem because the compressor would still reach those same high RPMs on a gasser - the engine would just be turning at higher RPMS too. Getting it set up right on the diesel would require calculating the RPMs and boost (PSI) of the compressor and the air flow (CFM) at the HP peak RPMs of the smaller displacement gasser, and then setting it up the pulley ratios to spin the compressor at a rate that will provide the same boost pressure with the larger CFM displacement of the diesel at the diesel's HP peak RPMs. Not an easy set of calculations to do with any real precision, but not too tough to calculate a reasonably close estimate. It doesn't have to be exactly perfect to work - just reasonably close.

I think a Paxton would be a very worthwhile experiment on one of these IDIs, and a pretty easy install too. Getting the pulley ratios just right might involve adding a second pulley to either the vacuum pump or alternator to use two belts and step it up in two stages, but that shouldn't be an insurmountable challenge. The air conditioner compressor mount would be the logical place to put it with a minimum amount of fab work, but if you HAVE to keep your precious AC, then you could still probably fab the brackets to mount it below the AC compressor or vacuum pump.

See that is what is confusing me. Why when you triple the rpms with a blower does the boost go up more. That to me makes no sense. Why wouldnt it be linear, its running off the crank, so as rpm's go up the blower speed goes up. Why would it push more air up top (more efficiency maybe :confused: ) that what it should.

And I would say your EGT thinking is false. I can see it easily with my truck. If I lug it with no boost (say 1300rpm's in 4th gear), I'll be roaling the coal and my EGT's will go up to 1000*. Now take for instance me going down the road, say 2000rpm's 3psi of boost and 600* EGT's, if I step on it it will take me almost triple the time to get to 1000* compared to lugging it, and this is with hardly any smoke output (because I would be at almost 8psi boost).
 

Agnem

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I may be wrong about this, but my gut feeling is you can't feed a turbo into a supercharger, unless you have a clutch on the supercharger that will let it freewheel.
 

tractorman86

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buy it try it and if it dosent work after a few attempts sell it on ebay and make your money back! i really like the idea though
 
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