Ongoing Headgasket saga, more questions no answers...

[Agnem]

Yea. I was going to jump in and say it should be 85 foot pounds also. 10 more than the factory spec of 75 is safe and required for turbo applications. Should really bring out the best in those studs. As for the problem in general Zigg, leave it to you to come up with something I can't remember seeing in probably 50,000 or more posts that I've read. What about the alignment dowels. Any chance they are what is stopping the head from coming down? How did the intake feel going on last time? did you have to fight it at all? Do you have crop circles in your neighborhood? Maybe time lapses at night?

 

[tonkadoctor]

Seeing you have already had the heads checked, check the deck on the engine block for hairline cracks and straightness if you still have the heads off.

With you using a calibrated torque wrench, tightening to specs with studs I don't see how the gasket would'nt crush properly if BOTH surfaces are flat, somethings amiss here for sure and I do hope you find it.

While I have always used Felpro gaskets over the years and a couple hundred engine builds (all gassers), primarily because of where I shop for parts, I've never heard bad about Victor and they've been around a long time.

 

[dsblack]

before assembly, test the head to the block. Carefully set the head on the block with no gasket and check the gap.... See if the head is seating all of the way without the gasket in place.

 

[icanfixall]

When you check the head to block without a gasket use a 2 or 3 thousands shim stock or feeler gage with and without the dowels inplace. Something seems to be holding the head up off the block. So far you have ruled out the torque wrench. Are all the studs the same length and the threads in the same location on each stud? Try installing all the studs in the block after you bottom tap clean each hole. All the studs should be even at the tops. Measure the head and gasket thickness and see where that fits along the stud length. You may find something. If you feel the torque was correct on each stud then it must be something holding the head up off the block or you ran out of stud thread. Faulty gaskets is at best a stretch but it still is a possibility too. Did any machine work on the block deck get done?

 

[zigg]

As for the problem in general Zigg, leave it to you to come up with something I can't remember seeing in probably 50,000 or more posts that I've read.

Mel...you kill me man. I'm not sure if you mean I come up with doozy problems, or doozy solutions, but either way, this is the reason that my wife calls me ziggy(the little guy with the little black cloud following around...)

before assembly, test the head to the block. Carefully set the head on the block with no gasket and check the gap.... See if the head is seating all of the way without the gasket in place.

Doug...yeah, I got the day off today, so I'm gonna do just that. I'm not really sure what the best straight edge I'll use to check the block deck, but I'll figure out something....

Roll up those sleeves, twist one up,
and get on 'er.

Bob...I'm not familiar with "twist one up"....is that some sort of slang you folks over in langley use to ****** to torquing the bolts or something?? ;p


I'll let you all know what I find this evening. I'll probably take a couple pics too, so you can see what I'm seeing...

Zigg

 

[dsblack]

Zigg,
I was thinking along the lines of a feeler gauge along the edge of the head to check for gaps. It shuld sit on the block, And should not have much gap. If there is a gap, I have no clue what would be acceptable... But if it does not sit on the block, then maybe you can see where and what is causing the issue?
Mushroomed dowel pin?

 

[icanfixall]

Maximum head warpage is 3 thousands in any 6 inches or 6 thousands overall.

 

[Russ]

I've never seen the studs in question, so this maybe way out in left field, but Is there any chance that the nuts on the studs ran out of threads before the nuts contacted the heads? As in the studs were not threaded down far enough, or installed up side down? washers missing? Just tossing out ideas.

 

[BigRigTech]

My advice, spend the money for a decent machinist's straight edge and check EVERYTHING yourself...I have my own so I check stuff before and after machining so there's no guess work involved....Save's me money too when I don't need something planed for no reason.

ARP head studs will likely take less torque to acheive the same tension as a stock stud- their tensile strength is higher so it will take less torque toto clamp the same. Folllow ARP's torque specs, not the Hayne's book because the ARP spec's take into account the tensile strength differences.

 

[icanfixall]

To find an inexpensive 24 inch straight edge go to Ebay and enter Starrett straight edge. Or under the heading, tools, just use the word straight edge.

 

[yARIC008]

How could it be the gaskets? That doesn't make any sense to me. Seems like if they are bad you'd be able to see right away as they'd be grossly disfigured. Otherwise they're fine. All they do is sit in there and take up space. Even if they are too thin or too thick they'd still work. Would change the compression ratio slightly but that's besides the point.

Is it possible for you to try normal head bolts for a while and see if that works?
Would be nice to eliminate all foreign variables until you get it sorted.

We all know head bolts work perfectly fine for normal applications and I've never heard of a head bolt not working but a stud, seems like few people commonly use those so who knows.

 

[BigRigTech]

Studs are usually better, more even clamping force....Gaskets can be bad in desgin, just look at the Mercedes 4000 truck engines, their head gaskets are crap...Poor design and not enough head bolts per head...I think they are on version 3 trying to stop all the leaks...I've seen more than one 4000 block ruined because the head was working on the gasket and the liner protrusion was out of spec after 2 gasket replacements. I would check the block deck and head face for straigtness and follow only ARP's torque spec for those studs.

 

[zigg]

Well, I had the one head checked for flatness and warpage(and pressure tested) by a local IH machine shop. They said it is dead flat, and pressure tested to 40psi for 2 hours and never leaked a bit.

So, I used an aluminum level on the head, and it seems pretty flat: I wasn't able to slide a .002 feeler under it on the surface. The pre-cups are allowed .0025 protrusion, and there is at least that, maybe closer to .003. Curiously though, the only place where the head gasket appeared to have sealed well is right around the pre-cups and on the whole intake side(where the pre-cups sit)

I checked the block for flatness, and couldn't find any are with more than .003 clearance overall, never mind over 6"., so that checks out.

I put the head on the block with the dowels in place, and tapped it down, and the most I can fit a feeler gauge in there anywhere is .003. Couldn't get a .004 one in anywhere.

I did measure the thickness of the gasket that came out. This might be something. Most of it is .065 thick. there are some edges(along the intake manifold rail where it doesn't get crushed) that measured closer to .075. But really interesting is on the exhaust side, where the gasket doesn't get crushed, it is essentially the same thickness as the part that got crushed. Like it either had been previously flattened, or just had no room to crush at all?!! The flattened part is just the same thickness as a part that never got crushed?!! That doesn't seem right.

I measured the new IH gaskets that I've just got, and they mic out to over
.085 evenly overall.

At this point, I'm just at a loss what to do. I really believe in the Studs and don't want to go back to the bolts. I've checked everything over and over, and I'm not running out of threads or anything like that. I'm starting to think I'm going to just put on the new gaskets and take a chance. Nothing else seems to come up that can explain this.

Zigg

 

[sle2115]

The gaskets are not felpro, or IH, but a company called Victor Reinz.

Anyone heard anything about these gaskets good or bad?

Yep, heard of them, used their head gaskets twice, both times had problems and wont use them again! I had a small block chevy, emmissions compression (8.5 to 1 or so) that would not seal and a Buick GNX turbo 3.8 V6 that did the same. In both cases, we installed FelPro and both sealed, nothing else was done. Now I am not saying that is your case, but when you buy gaskets, I would only use one brand, but that is just me. I haven't read anything but your first post, yet, so my opinion is not skewed by what others think!!!

Personally, I would put FelPro against any gasket maker. The spend tons of money on R&D and make a product that is better than OEM because it is all they do and they update as needed, not when old stock depleats etc.

 

[sle2115]

FelPro - I would take the IH gaskets back and buy FelPro myself.