Ongoing Headgasket saga, more questions no answers...

[reklund]

I'll counter the pro- FelPro guys, and say "nothing fits like factory!"

I've seen countless Fel-Pro failures in Toyota vehicles, with no other problems found with the engines. Stick the IH gaskets in, torque the studs down, and let 'er rip. Don't forget the ARP moly lube on the threads of the studs, and thread sealant on any studs that might protrude into a water jacket. I also believe in studs, they've cured chronic blown headgasket problems on Supras and 22R trucks for me (Turbo'ed engines, however) on more than one occasion.

Ryan

 

[sle2115]

And I would counter with the fact that I sold and installed them for 20 years + and never saw a failure. Not to mention the fact that you need to disclose the Toyota gaskets failed as well, with a very high rate. We pressure checked and surfaced at least 3 sets of 3.0 V6 Toyota heads per week in a town that had one Toyota dealership and about 8,000 people. Those particular engines had sealing issues right from the factory and we ALWAYS sold them FelPro gaskets with the pressure test and surface and as I said, I never had one complaint!

 

[dsblack]

I would say,
Crossing my fingers that you just had a set of gaskets that had issues. Keep us up on this. I would say it is time to put her back together and see where it goes. Looks like everything checks out from a fit standpoint.

 

[zigg]

I would say it is time to put her back together and see where it goes. Looks like everything checks out from a fit standpoint.

Yep, I think that about sums it up. I still haven't pulled the passenger head yet, I'll be heading out in about 20 mins to do that, but I'm sure it'll look just the same, and I doubt taking it in to pressure test etc will turn up anything, since the symptoms were exactly the same on both sides.

Someone else said, the only foreign parts(common denominator) is the studs, but the other common denominator is the gaskets, and I just can't believe the studs could account for this. They just clamp down, and better than bolts, so I guess I'll just be cleaning it up and trying again with IH gaskets.

I'll report back on the progress...

Zigg

 

[hahn_rossman]

gasket crush thickness

Zigg-
If your gasket looked (and measured) uncompressed on the exhaust side, I believe that you managed to get the head cocked when installing it. I'd double check the head dowels and look for something burred or binding on installation. It doesn't seem possible to compress a gasket at 85 ft/lbs and not have it deform...

 

[86 1 tonhauler]

did u clean the threads in the block with a tap berfore u installed the head studs?every one is telling u to check the head long way across the head instead of also checking from exhuast to intake side too,another vote here for felpro i have used felpro on every motor i have done and trust them there very good gaskets, theres always gonna be a dud set of gaskets chit happens but when u say it smashed on some parts of the gaskets leads me to belive that the block may need to be decked and check to see if the dowel pins arent mushroomed or oval shaped , and here something for the bolt vers stud
u guys arent realizing that they have the same hold down strength as bolt its the strength of the steel in the head studs that make them better cuz they dont stretch as much as the lower grade metal bolt , thats why u can torque them more than a bolt so that mean when there is all that boost and high compression ratio they dont stretch and lift off of the block

 

[BigRigTech]

Typically an ARP bolt will need less torque to achieve the same tension as a stock bolt. Look up some bolts and compare the stock torque to the ARP torque, they will be different.

 

[86 1 tonhauler]

if stock bolts were made out of the same type of steel ten u wouldnt need studs but i guess im not even understanding this by now

 

[Freight_Train]

No,Bolts of the same strength still wouldn't be as good as studs.Bolts cannot be tightened as much as studs period(Ft/Lbs wise).When you tighten a bolt you are twisting the steel along with putting linear tention on the bolt.The bolts will break at a much lower torque rating due to the twisting sheer force of tighening(Ever twist a head off a screw/bolt?) where as a stud the only twisting force will be the nut itself with a very low rotational force put on the studs so the studs will actually hold up better since you can torque them down tighters since it is much harder to PULL a bolt in half then sheer/twist it.

 

[BigRigTech]

What he said. ....Hence the less torque required on a stud to equal the same tension as a bolt....This is why I suggested checking with ARP on the recommended torque value for those studs.

 

[RedTruck]

Zig,

May be to late, but what if you applied a little machinist's bluing or plasti-gauge (in various spots throughout) between the head and block. Then torque it down without the gasket. Seems like you'd get a pretty accurate picture of exactly what you have...all measurements asside.

Hope it all works out for you this weekend!

Paul

 

[zigg]

Managed to pull the Drivers head yesterday, and as I suspected, it looks exactly the same as the passenger side.

There's rust on the deck of the head, and some on the block deck too. Just looks like there never was a seal from the gasket at all, and there's coolant all over. Curiously enough, no water in oil, or oil in water...

I did look closely at the heads, and the allowable protrusion of the pre-cups is .0025. They definately protrude, but my straight edge isn't very accurate, so I'm not sure how much. I'm going to take them down a bit though just to have peace of mind.

There's some pics to follow. The stud pic is to show that there's lots of thread left, and there's a washer that goes on before the nut, so I'm not running out of thread.

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You can see the head surface and the rust there, and the block surface, and if you look close, you can see where the gasket has sealed mostly on the intake side, and not sealed at all on the exhaust side.

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I did put the head on the block without a gasket, and it sits down nice and flat with less that .002 space between the 2, so it doesn't appear to be hanging up on anything...

Finally, the pics of the gasket. You can see how thick the crush lip is on the intake side where the seal looked best, and you can see on the exhaust side, a part of the gasket that sticks out and doesn't get crushed, and there's almost no discernable crush ridge there, like it never got crushed at all...

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Raining today, so just gonna clean up the heads, work on the pre-cups, and think about it all some more...

Zigg

 

[Freight_Train]

Did you follow the Spiral torque pattern?Also,check the head with a set of outside mics to make sure the heads are square.Just cause they are flat done mean they weren't put on the surface grinder flat.

Dumb question but you did clean all the mating surfaces didn't ya?

 

[icanfixall]

Great pictures. The precups can be up 2 1/2 or sunken 2 1/2 thousands. I dought this is your problem because it seems like you had good contact in the area around the top side of the head. It almost looks like the head gasket was not made correctly. I followed the flow of coolant and it just looks like there was not enough gasket to seal it. Maybe there was a defective bath that snuck out of the factory and you got a set. If they were made with some "channels" or dents that would allow coolant a path to flow thru maybe this is the problem. Felpro haed gaskets are about 72 thousands thick before compression. You have posted the IH gaskets measure around 80 thousands or so. I would use those of Felpro and feel confident with that. I know its plenty of work and money if something else is wrong but where do you go from here right now. These motors do have a "finish" required for good gasket adhesion but thats really going way out ther looking for the smallest possible problem. Just hang in there and put it back together and "lets see what happens". Everybody here is working with you on this. If you have some yellow legal notebook paper its 3 thousand thick. Try a piece of that next to the precups if you don't have a feeler gage or some shim stock. The plastic gage sounds like a good idea used in the areas of most leakage too.

 

[zigg]

Doh!!

I was putzing around in my shop this morning(more like aimlessly wandering), and then suddenly a light went on in my small brain, and I remembered buying m'self a dial indicator a few years back. Just had to find it....(forgetting which tools you have may be the beginning of Old timers' disease...)

It's the kind with a magnetic base, so you just lock it down, and then move it and lock it down again to read the difference.

As someone mentioned, it looks like the best fit of the gasket, was around the intake side by the pre-cups, but when I used the dial indicator, and I checked each of the pre-cup protrusions, about 5 times each for consistency, most of the pre-cups protruded on average 3-5thou!! None were under the .0025 maximum!

So, I pulled one, and underneath there's a shelf that they sit down against, and it had old hardened carbon buildup there. Chipped that all away, and re-inserted the pre-cup, and it dropped down some, but I still had to shave a bit off all of them.

I mounted a 10" metal cutting wheel on my Radial arm saw, spun it up, and then held the pre-cup against it with a gentle rotating motion. I then brought it back in, and polished the face using first 150,then 350grit emery cloth laying on a 4" flat bar. Those babies are hard. I had to do it several times for a couple of them, to get them down to spec.

I got them all down to less than .002 and re-inserted them all.

Maybe this is something?

Just cleaning it all up now. I got IH gaskets to put it back together with.

Zigg