NO START, NO CRANKING CONDITION- seeking diagnostic avice!

[madpogue]

Battery voltage at rest tells you very little. If you measured it with the batteries connected, it tells you nothing, because it's measuring the two together. You need to LOAD test the batteries, and isolate them (disconnect one of the negatives) when you do so.

That wire with the broken terminal on the starter solenoid doesn't go to the ignition switch. It goes to the relay. Not sure where it is on the vans exactly, but on Cold War era Ford products generally, it's on the passenger side inner fender. The other end of that wire will be connected to the relay on one of the large terminals; it'll be the terminal with only one wire on it. It certainly would explain a no-crank.

In fact, you could skip the other tests and do an "end to end" test right from the "cab" (do you call it a "cab" with a van? :shrug: : ). Put a voltmeter, red probe on the bit of terminal that's still on that wire, black probe to a ground in the interior. MAKE SURE that terminal doesn't touch anything else (tape it up if you need to), watch the meter and turn the key to START. If the meter shows 12V while you have the key in START, then everything "upstream" is good, and that broken terminal is your bogey.

 

[SDEconVan]

Thanks madpogue,

since they are new batteries, it's not a problem to take them down for load tests. I am aware that no-load is not too informative, please note that the vehicle started and abruptly ceased. I should note, this reminds me, when it died, the van started in P and N, then only N, then not at all (should have mentioned that, apologies, just recalled that.) Just to note a progression of possible failure.

The batteries are new and the MLPS/TR is new, so their function is questionable.

Oh, also, I actually did tape the red lead of my DVM to the remaining bit of eyelet connector from the SOLN wire, and got ZERO v at start. Confidence is low on this test however because I had customers coming in right at that moment, and had to close up shop immediately afterwards. I did turn the key to start twice and showed zero volts both times (my gut tells me not to fully trust this result, as the ground could have been better.) I did this test sitting in the "cab" (driver's seat,) looking at the DVM resting on the floor. (Good question, I've only owned trucks, (I have a '61 Econoline, but it's a truck/van-up and it has a cab,) and I thought the same thing as you did as I typed "cab." "Driver's Area?" "Forward control area?" ha)

Also, I noticed the headlights were good and bright. Days before (with normal start up,) the headlights dimmed, and the Dash Clock momentarily went out on every start, then came back on while running, and all that seemed pretty normal.

What else... Brake lights were strong as seen in my mirrors reflecting against the wall. Shoot, I should check for a Reverse Light too (TR function.)

I like the idea of isolating the Relay to the Solenoid to eliminate that wire as an issue. (Yes, Relay is what goes to IGN, I oversimplified, my bad. The black wire is about a 14 gauge and in spite of easily breaking off the eyelet connector, the condition of the wire looked good and didn't feel rigid from age.)

I am considering some kind of paper clip jumper at the MLPS/TR to allow a start. But that would be later. Again, I can literally be sitting in the Driver's Seat and have the MLPS in my hand, still wired in, just not on the trans, and rotate the sensor a little back and forth while in N to try and allow a start.

I am all ears on diagnostics, I am not in a panic rush, I know it will get fixed, I will document what happens, mostly I don't want to wreck anything.

Right now my IDI is dead, won't start.

Thank you for your help.
Best regards,
George

 

[SDEconVan]

I ended up pulling the entire Relay-to-Solenoid wire out to inspect and replace the broken end. (Just wanted to check it off the list of possible issues.)

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Used cutting wheel to remove the clamped part,

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Copper looked good, rest of wire felt supple.

Soldered rather than crimped,

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I use a butane-powered soldering iron rather than an electric one, those are too slow. Secret is to keep the tip clean and sharp.

shrinked,

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Starter Relay on the IDI vans is on the Passenger's Side under the core support top lip, just forward of the battery,

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(view looking forward)
Connecting stud is lower left, wire is not as big as one would think, given the size of the eyelet, probably 14 ga.

*******************
All connected, End-to-End Test, and with DVM between solenoid wire junction at the starter, and ground...
...turn the key to START,
I get ZERO volts:

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So the good news is, it's not the more expensive Starter/Relay/Battery circuit, and probably the IGN/MLPS(TR) "upstream" has a fault.

*******************

I'm beginning to understand the interactions better. I pulled the MLPS off the E4OD case, still plugged in though, and had it on the floor
so I could move it around, to try to allow a start. (NO intention of loading or trying to drive it, just want it to Crank and Start.)

The shift linkage was still in good adjustment when I took off the MLPS, I just bolted the arm back on,

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I lined up the "neutral" marks on the MLPS, put the van in Neutral, and it started

NOTE: the socket in the MLPS was REAL HARD to turn, screw driver barely got it, kinda marred up the plastic a bit...

Moving the MLPS a tiny bit, and I get a no-crank, no-start.

********************

It's pointing strongly at the MLPS (TR) except for one problem...

...with the MLPS lined up EXACTLY like it is now, BUT installed on the E4OD case, I get the no-crank, no-start condition


I have another TR on order.

NOT sure why it is acting like this, maybe from bolting it to the case the pressure is somehow squeezing the unit? Maybe the shafting is slipping, and
the plastic MLPS is sloppy on the keyway of the shaft. Shaft is brand new B&M, (allows for the Arm to be bolted on and taken off, so I could
fabricate the shift linkage, and adjust it to get it dialed in.) Shifting of the mechanism feels real good BTW, and indicator lines up with
the correct PRND21 marks simultaneous with the US Shift display,

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So, it starts, but not out of the woods yet, I'll report back once I get the new TR unit, and we shall see if that fixes everything.

Thanks for all your help!
Best regards,
George

 

[madpogue]

That's some awesome sleuthing, and it must be gratifying to have narrowed it down so much. I've never physically had my hands on an MLPS (only owned manuals since the disco sucks days), but yeah, I'd say if the switch is hard to rotate, and behaves differently removed from the tranny vs. installed, I'd say put a fork in it, it's done.

And now I know something about the vans (starter relay location) that I didn't know five minutes ago....

 

[SDEconVan]

@madpogue-

Thank you for the help. Turns out to be the MLPS and related shafting/lever.

My case was unique and I am still not sure if the 1998 E4OD case was more like the 4R100 case as far as the mounting bolt locations for the MLPS (TR) are concerned, or not. I just COULD NOT GET THE MARKS TO ALIGN EXACTLY PERFECT.

In any case I CANNOT use the 4R100 TR (it's digital, I built this E4OD like a 1995-97,) even though the marks lined up like they should. Sooo, I had to do some "fabrication" to make the '95-'97 analog MLPS work properly.

The "key way" on the Shift Lever Shaft going into the transmission might have been manufactured a little bit "off" also, but IF it was, the difference is barely perceptible when looking at the original. (B&M aftermarket shaft was used for specific reasons mentioned earlier.)

I had to REALLY oval out the holes of the Sensor,

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Note the offset- I had to completely remove the aluminum crush inserts from the plastic body of the MLPS (TR)

To make this work, I installed some M6x1.0 50mm studs I made from some valve body bolts I had left over. With studs I could double-nut the MLPS, thus "capturing" it and holding it solidly, keeping the unit the correct distance out on the Shifter Shaft,

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THREE M6x1.0 nuts on each stud. First one to hold the stud in place (red thread locker,) and two other nuts to secure the MLPS.

I also have a fender washer on both sides of the MLPS holes to distribute the squeeze a little better,

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Note the alignment of the N marks- spot on.

Now, the shifting and starting is perfect, the reverse lights come on now too (remember this is the first functional test of the van since I got it, so no idea what might be broken or burned out.) The vehicle "pulls" the right direction when I shift, and the delay from P to R is well under 1 second, probably a half second.

The van starts in Park every time, there is a tiny bit of slop in the Column Shift Lever but pretty normal, even a little tight for this era of vehicle. (Before, the van would start most of the time in P, but I could "wiggle" the column shift and get a no-start, eventually getting a no-start all of the time.) Now, the van starts in Neutral every time also. The stand-alone Controller display matches the what I see on the column indicator exactly every time now. Also tried to wiggle the shift lever within each detent spot and it starts every time.

I'm not sure if this is fact but it also "feels" like the detents inside the E4OD "match" the detents of the Column Shift. The action feels the best it's been, really stable, there is no "kinda in reverse" if that makes sense.

The van starts real strong every time, I'd say it catches in less than one revolution if that's possible.

Again, big THANK YOU to you guys for breaking it down what needed to be looked at!
(that's why I'm a paying member on here, ****, it's the least I can do, you have NO IDEA how much time and aggravation this forum saves me from. Plus maybe this thread will help somebody else some day.)

Best regards,
George

Road Test coming up soon!

 

[79jasper]

Sweet.

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